Beware of E Bay

[JonBrooks]

Dear all

We (Icom) have come across a comapany set up as a shop on E Bay.
They are selling the Icom M402/S radio.

Although on the outset it looks a good deal, an Icom with DSC for less than £200.
Its not.
The unit is the USA model, it is the wrong class of DCS, is only class F not class D.

They company also claim it is legal for leisure boaters to buy and use this radio in the UK.
Again its not.
The radio is only intended for USA use.

We found the company are not informing customers of the pit falls and legal implications at time of purchase.

If you have brought one you could be in all sorts of hot water and have a legitimate beef. Your local Trading Standars office should be your first port of call (no pun intended).

They are also selling other makes of VHF radio only intended for USA use.

If you have any questions please feel free to ask or call me at the office.
01227 741741

Regards

<hr width=100% size=1>Jon Brooks Icom UK Ltd. 01227 741741

 

[dickh]

Thanks for that info, I have also seen them on ebay and I had an email dialogue with them when they were selling the cheaper non DSC set from another company. They were also claimed it was OK to sell in the UK & Europe, saying they were very popular in Germany, even though I copied the relevant regs from the the Radio Communications Agency site. It got abusive in the end and I didn't bother replying. But I did send an email to Mike Martin(who occasionally posts on this forum) at the RCA asking if they were legal etc, they said they would look into it and get back but no reply yet!
Nice to know that the 402s is not compliant with EU regs, all we in the UK are waiting for is one the SIZE of the 402S that IS compliant for the price of around £200 and you will sell lots!!

<hr width=100% size=1>dickh
I'd rather be sailing... /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[Aja]

Jon

Surely if you can make a class F radio for less than £200, sold in USA, you can make a class D, sold in UK?

Or am I missing something?

Donald

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[JonBrooks]

Sorry to say it is not possible at this time.
A lot more info has to be displayed and delt with on a class D.

We are constantly looking at ways to improve our radio line up.

A combined VHF/DSC for less then £200 is on our wish list.

Also the US type approval is very different from that of the EU.
CE marking being one big part of that.
We have to the US don't. all adds to the cost

Regards

<hr width=100% size=1>Jon Brooks Icom UK Ltd. 01227 741741

 

[Guest]

Recent Court case ....

OK .... not in connection with Marine items ... but a Computer supplier was prosecuted in Canada recently for failing to supply goods against advance payment. He had in the first days supplied clone PC's goods and then slowly reduced his supply against money paid..... till finally he was taking and NO give !!!! Court was not amused and he got stung pretty badly.

I suppose that many consider that e-Bay is a good 'remote' system to fleece others, while genuine e-Bay'rs suffer.

I personally don't buy from it, but do scan it for various bits and bobs ... I'm one of life's sceptics !!!!!



<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !

 

[dickh]

Jon,
I went to the US ICOM website and although you obviously list the 402S as DSC, it does not say wether it is class F or D - surely this should be added so UK/EU customers don't make the mistake in buying from the US, thinking they have a bargain.
Alternatively, to add a note saying "NOT FOR USE IN UK/EU AS NOT CLASS D". This is also not made clear on US Chandlery sites like WestMarine.

<hr width=100% size=1>dickh
I'd rather be sailing... /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[JonBrooks]

You are right.
The dealer should make people aware of this.
We try to do our best to educate both dealers and end users.

I have come across lots who have brought from West and the want us to support the product.

The other big thing is Icom UK give you 3 year warranty on all marine equipment.
No one else does that for you.

regards

<hr width=100% size=1>Jon Brooks Icom UK Ltd. 01227 741741

 

[jimbouy]

Ebay is fine, if you use some common sense

I have used Ebay as a buyer and seller manytimes now with out a hitch.

I treat it like I would the small ads in my local paper.

But I don't trust anything that is too good to be true or people with a large Number of a single item to sell.

Also i think twice about anyone who has set up an Ebay shop or whose email address is something like fred45@webmail.com.

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[Mike_Martin]

Hi Dick,

Nice thought but why would a company manufacturing soley for the US "Domestic" market consider the extra expense of this. In the same way that PMR 446 radios are not marked "Not for use in the United States"

It's always a good idea to also remember that a "retailer" is there to convince you to buy his stock, he is not in any way impartial whilst chasing the deal.

MIke

<hr width=100% size=1>Manager,
Aeronautical & Maritime Services Section,
Radiocommunications Agency

 

[Mike_Martin]

Hi again Dick,

I thought I'd got back to you sorry, an oversight on my part.

I let slip our "Dogs of Enforcement" only for them to be run up the dead-end of an anonymous private E-bayer.

This situation is quite different.

Mike

<hr width=100% size=1>Manager,
Aeronautical & Maritime Services Section,
Radiocommunications Agency

 

[AndrewB]

Beware of Market Cartels

GMDSS is intended to be a global standard for safety. So why should there be any inherent difference in the DSC radios? Is the model you sell in the USA, and used by US yachts visiting the UK, less effective than the one you want me to buy? Will it work only on different frequencies? Is it less healthy, safe or envionmentally sound to use? No, no, and no. So why should mine cost more?

This whole business looks far too much like a stitch-up somewhere between manufacturers, the RCA, and the CE regulators to artificially segment the market and thereby inflate prices to British yachties, crying 'foul' if we attempt to do anything about it. Shades of the UK car market a decade ago, which the manufacturers vehemently denied was their fault.

I don't believe in breaking the law but sympathise with those who are tempted in this case.

 

[JonBrooks]

Mike

Nice pic mate!!

See you Friday

Regards

<hr width=100% size=1>Jon Brooks Icom UK Ltd. 01227 741741

 

[Guest]

but where is the copy of the law

that says it is illegal for leisure boaters to buy and use this radio in the UK?

we have been thru this before on previous posts and without knowing what the difference between them is i will still maintain that if a boat comes over here from the states he can use his radio and it will work, is mike martin going to unleash his dogs on him?

lets not forget that only a few years ago we were paying the highest prices for cars in europe, according to a report in a sunday paper we are now paying one of the lowest prices, and that because some one had the balls to stand up to the manufactureres and government and import cars from europe. long live the free market and enterprise.
stu

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[dickh]

Jon,
I would have certainly be tempted by Westmarine if I was in the market for a new DSC radio, but after your post maybe not. Good to hear about the 3 yr warranty though, that is certainly something worth thinking about.
But alas my ancient Kelvin Hughes Huson 60 keeps going on and on and on....
However, when Icom bring out their own £200 UK/EU/CE compliant vhf which is the same size as the 402s I would be very tempted... I just don't have anywhere to put your very nice large screen sets(or the ££££). Other people like NASA, SILVA and XM manage to produce radios in that price range, and I'm sure you would sell lots in UK & Europe - you must be loosing a lot of sales to these competitors.
Incidently where are your vhf's manufactured, in Japan or China?


<hr width=100% size=1>dickh
I'd rather be sailing... /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[JonBrooks]

Re: Beware of Market Cartels

I don't make or enforce the rules.
I just have to abide with them the same as you and all boat owners do.

Yes yes and yes is the actual answer.

Yes the operate in a different way. Class F DSC is very different.
No M1 and M2. the frequecies will and are different.
The US use alot mor duplex channels that the rest of the world.

Yes the could be less safe.

Yes, as they are not CE marked they could be less healthy.

Yes they can be less effective becaus of all the above points.

You may be paying more but are getting a better deal.

For example you don't get 3 year warranty in the USA.
Buy that as an extra and see how much it will cost you.

If you buy a direct equivalent in the US to one of our products ( M602 against M601)
you will find the price very close.

We have are are trying at every stage to give you the user best value for money.
This does not always mean cheep.
We are not trying to rip you off.

In the USA most leisure boats never leave US territorial waters so they have their own rules and kit for that market.
Where I live I can be in French waters in 15 mins.

You will find the USA commercail standards close to the rest of the world.
Maybe Mike can confirm that.

Hope that all helps

Regards

Jon

<hr width=100% size=1>Jon Brooks Icom UK Ltd. 01227 741741

 

[JonBrooks]

Re: but where is the copy of the law

Stu

Main feature difference for class F against class D.

Class D has a dedicated watch keeping reciever for Ch 70.
This constantly monitors the channel.

Class F works a bit like a dual or tri watch flicking between you working ch and 70.

Displays show different info to and some of the functions do not appear for class F that you have on class D

US set do not have M1 and M1
Also they use a lot more duplex ch than us.

Hope that gives you an idea

Regards

Jon

<hr width=100% size=1>Jon Brooks Icom UK Ltd. 01227 741741

 

[dickh]

Martin, glad to put a face to the name from the recent newsletter. How did your "Dogs of Enforcement" run up a deadend; surely all you have to do is buy one of the sets anonymously, you'll get the address to post the monies to and hey presto - you pounce! - or doesn't it work like that in the RCA?

<hr width=100% size=1>dickh
I'd rather be sailing... /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[pvb]

We\'re more wary of manufacturers, Jon...

Icom is a well-respected brand, and I'm sure you're keen to maintain your brand values. However, like other posters, I'm beginning to suspect that you're trying to confuse us.

You say the M402 is "only class F not class D". But that's not true, is it? According to Icom USA, the M402 complies with SC-101, the North American standard which is considerably higher than class F. (There's a good description of the features of the different classes on the US Coast Guard website - <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/marcomms/gmdss/dsc.htm>click here to view it</A>).

You say that US frequencies are different, and that they use more duplex channels. That's not the whole truth either, is it? The M402 is switchable between US, International and Canadian channels. So the only downside for us in the UK is the lack of M1 and M2.

So, just so we can all be clear, could you confirm whether or not the M402 complies with SC-101, or whether it's only class F, as you've claimed? And, does it have International channels, or only US channels?

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[coco]

Re: but where is the copy of the law

The DSC classes are as follows:

Class A, send and receive DSC messages with integrated receiver for CH70. Automatic aknowledgement and relay.

Class D, send and receive DSC messages with integrated receiver for CH70. Acknowledegement.

Class F, send only. Automatic acknowledgement.

Class C, send only. No acknowledgement.

From this, it is obvious that a class D needs more hardware and software than a class C or F.

What is interesting though and as far as I know, is that the Simrad HD52 portable DSC VHF is class C and the only country within the CE where you can operate these is the UK.

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[AndrewB]

US ICOM sets \"less safe\", \"less healthy\" !?

Do Americans know this?

Regarding your other points:

I haven't seen a VHF set in years that doesn't include both US and International frequencies, apart from a few minor ones. The ICOM M402 for example is invariably advertised in the US as having "All International, USA and Canadian channels". Are you saying that is not true?

If the only difference is the omission of M1, do you think that justifies the price difference? Its defined as a secondary working channel, and most marinas that use it offer an alternative, I for one wouldn't seriously miss it. M2 is little used.

You must be aware of the <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.which.net/media/pr/feb03/general/warranties.html>CA reports</A> on the value of long-term warranties, which apply equally to those offered by manufacturers as retailers. Not worthless, but nothing like sufficient to justify the price difference.

I do not understand your argument why our radios have to be different because France is close. There is a long-standing maritime convention that with special exceptions, sea vessels are permitted to abide by the regulations of the country of registration, even if they visit countries that differ. Plenty of US and Canadian yachts visit Europe, and are permitted to use their own VHF sets while here.

I've no idea whether the recommended price of the M601 and M602 are comparable. What I do know is that the street price is very, very different. The M601 is typically advertised at £550 (inc VAT), the M602 at $500.

Sorry if you find you have walked into a minefield, but many yachties do feel strongly that these price differentials on equipment are unjustifiable and could not be maintained except for regulatory technicalities.