Beta and Adverc Warranty problems

[dmh]

A friend is in the process of having a Beta Engine fitted to his yacht by a boatyard. His old engine had a 3 year old Adverc unit fitted and he wanted to have this unit coupled into the new beta alternator. Beta have told him that if he does this the entire engine warranty will be void as they have had so many problem with the Adverc cooking the batteries and the engine instruments. Beta will not install the Adverc unit themselves either. Has anyone experienced this problem with Beta or any other engine supplier.

 

[[2574]]

There was a long detailed discussion about this - I think on the liveaboard forum - when it was agreed that Adverc is a booster and not a regulator. It therefore increases battery voltage to accelerate charging but does not regulate voltage. This I think leads to suggestions that the product "cooks" battery's. Try a search on liveaboard forum.

rob

 

[salamicollie]

Maybe Beta have vested interest in this - they supply their own advanced regulator!

I've never heard of an Adverc unit boiling the batteries if correctly fitted but when I fitted one to a new Yanmar I had to accept that the alternator was no longer covered - this seem fair as I was opening up the unit and soldering inside.

 

[pappaecho]

Worth reading this months PBO regarding alternators and devices which increase the charge rate

 

[pappaecho]

Just had an idea to get round your problem. My Beta engine has a facility for a second alternator, which you could fit with Adverc, and then this would not void the warranty, as long as you use the Beta alternator to charge the engine battery. Apparently an old Ford Escort alternator is ideal, gives about 80 amp max, and would not be expensive to buy second hand, or indeed to modifiy

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, the conclusion was that neither the Adverc nor the Sterling could reduce charging volts below the crude original alternator internal regulator's preset (and we have it in writing from Charles Sterling that nobody would ever want to do that!). So yes, it is fair to call them 'boosters' not 'controllers'. However, if installed with sufficient diode drops (if you have diode splitters) and if the alternator controller is not at the high end of its spec, then they will be fine. There are 'ifs' though and you really need to understand the subject to know if it is safe, and if you decide that it isn't safe you can't adjust anything - all you can do is throw the Adverc of Sterling in the bin.

Balmar make a much more professional system - but you need to buy their alternator and regulator, keeping the original as a spare? I suspect that Beta would have no issues with that but the OP would want to ask them.

 

[[2574]]

a little thread drift, sorry, but you might be interested to know that i did go for a balmar end to end system. I fitted a 120A alternator on a single drive belt (twin belts are recommended). Merlin said there wouldn't be power transfer problems and they were correct. I've seen the alternator delivering 110A to the batteries for longish periods (an hour) and have seen no belt wear or dust. good kit.

 

[seaplane]

I have fitted many an adverc system and, to date, have never had a problem with them. The only time a problem arose was when an owner changed the alternator without realising that it had gone from a positive regulation to a negative therefore the adverc did not work at all. With regard to is it a regulator, I believe it is. As part of the comissioning procedure, the charge voltage is monitored over a period of time and the changes in voltage noted. The cycle lasts approximately 15 minutes and the voltage drops at the end. The entire time cycle is about an hour. My humble opinion. Seaplane /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Anonymous]

I wouldn't dispute what you say but for an Adverc or Sterling to fall back to (say) 13.6V the output of the fixed alternator regulator (the one that comes as standard and is not removed) must be giving an output of no more than 13.6V + the diode drop(s). Typically the diode drop will be 0.6V at end of charge (which is what matters in the overcharge scenario) so the alternator fixed regulator would need to be less than 14.2V. Many alternators have regulators - in spec - at 14.8V so you would have overcharging. Further, anyone not using diode splitters (i.e. using only one battery bank or a VSR) would not stand a chance since the Adverc cannot pull the alternator output below the fixed regulator level. It can only boost it up - which is an essential and inherent characteristic of 'piggy-back' controllers, like Adverc and Sterling.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the info. I am sure that Balmar is the way forward for serious cruising.

You should find that the Balmar gives perfect control, just like a modern mains charger?

 

[wotayottie]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, the conclusion was that neither the Adverc nor the Sterling could reduce charging volts below the crude original alternator internal regulator's preset (and we have it in writing from Charles Sterling that nobody would ever want to do that!).

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you want the output voltage to fall below the 13.4 or so soaking voltage delivered by the standard alternator? This is set to counteract the natural internal losses of the battery. Surely all you want from the adverc etc is an increased charge rate when needed.

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you want the output voltage to fall below the 13.4 or so soaking voltage delivered by the standard alternator? This is set to counteract the natural internal losses of the battery. Surely all you want from the adverc etc is an increased charge rate when needed.

[/ QUOTE ]Your standard alternator doesn't provide a level of 13.4V, it provides a level of over 14V (or it would never charge the batteries). The confusion arises since in boats we often put two batteries in place split by diodes (0.6V per diode). The alternators were designed for cars, with no splitting diode, not boats. So to get a decent charge rate for a boat with a diode splitter you need a booster such as an Adverc or Sterling. Fine, for some installations, but many alternators have a voltage of up to 14.8V (there is a spec range of typically 14.2V to 14.8V) and in those cases you get overcharge. Not to mention systems without diodes, which will be always be charged at the full charge voltage of around 14.5V - fine for a car for a few hours but not fine for a boat for 24/48 hours in a hot engine compartment.

This has already been coverd ad nauseum in another recent thread (search on Adverc) very recently, earlier this year.

 

[alldownwind]

[ QUOTE ]
Worth reading this months PBO regarding alternators and devices which increase the charge rate

[/ QUOTE ]
I thought it might be worth reading, but when I did it told me nothing I didn't already know! How could they say it was a 'test'?
And why didn't they remark on the amazing external similarity between the Merlin and the Driftgate? Finding out if they are the same device would have been useful info.
And why didn't they get the prices right?
Not impressed, as you can tell....

 

[davidbains]

Lemain, do you have solar panels as well?
And if so do you disconnect them or not when the Adverc/alternator is running?
Also what's suffering in a hot engine compt, alternator or battery or both?
So many questions, so little time.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, I have solar and it is connected through its controller to the batteries - I have three means of charging:- Alternator (presently with Sterling wired out as it does not do what I want it to), Mastervolt battery charge (smart, works from 220V ac from shore power or genny) and large solar panes through solar panel controller.

It is the batteries that suffer in the heat. Charge rate has to reduce from temperatures not much higher than 25C, and some chargers have a thermistor sensor. It is just as important for the alternator controller not to overcharge as it is for the mains charger UNLESS we are talking about day/weekend sailors who will seldom overcharge. Adverc and Sterling are probably fine for most day/weekend sailors unless they run their engines for more than 15 hours or so, or in hot climes, e.g. Med.

 

[Mudhook]

As a point of interest, Adverc are adamant that their system is not a booster.

"The ADVERC Battery Management System is not a 'charge-booster' nor does it 'bypass' the original regulator."

It would be interesting to talk to the very helpful people at Adverc. Sounds to me like Beta haven't bothered to check how many of their cooking-battery reports are due to some other fault. I'm not planning to re-engine any time soon, but Beta is off my list now.

Regards, Mudhook

 

[johna]

Having just installed a second Beta engine, different boats I might add, I notified Beta of the post. I understand they will be replying but in the mean time they have indicated to me that the withdrawal of warranty is limited to the alternator and not the whole engine.