Best small boat for the med?

Hi Jimmy
Great plan in principle! But you knew i'd say that. Some thoughts:

1. 16+9kbtu is definitely fine. Even a bit less would be fine. when we shipped our phantom 42 to sof in 2002 we had 9+16 installed, and ran it off an exisitng 5kva genset by having 2 compressors with a 30second timer so they didn't both start at once, and it was all fine. Anyway as others have said you will mainly be on shorepower when using it

2. FWIW I never run genset at night. Hate it. So at night we keep cool with open windows and desk fans plugged into 230 sockets and inveter. You could use 24v fans too. There are v few mosquitos to worry about in most of the anchorages around Antibes

3. I agree with others that t40 seems ideal, especially as yours is sorted and can be further sorted at UK prices. Also should be £5k on a truck

4. Because of your stern design you can just use a manual foldaway passerelle. And in PV you can just jump

5. But here's the big thing. Buying a berth is I'm guessing eating a chunk of your boat-buying budget. So why not do the A+K method of "making friends" with the capitainerie and renting? Several people do this very successfully. I know one guy (family from manchester) who have done this since 2001 in 15x5 berths and have only been moved once, from MS to Q1. Pretty good. An A+K have done it glitch free for 3 seasons. And the berth pressure is definitely lower than it was due to recession - the selling prices are plummeting. TBH I think berth buying is now a mugs game financially, and only makes sense for goons who are really insistent on having the precise spot they want and don't care about dropping a few hundred thousand. You know the type :-/ But not for sensible/intelligent people. So that's what I'd suggest: rent the berth, invest time in making friends with capitainerie, and use the £££ to buy the boat you want. The very worst that can happen is that you'll move berths a few times and in extremis be forced away from PV for a while. But nothing there is a disater - there are summer berths in genoa and wide open avaialbility on winter berths in Sardinia, for example. not suggesting that's your ideal but it does put a stop-loss on the very worst downside you can be facing. Much more likely you'll just get a rental in PV

6. If you did that then a 50er flybridge would give the accom you are seeking. Central owners cabin plus VIP in the bow, and enough saloon space to make it a holiday home. Lots of choice here from Faircesseeker. There is a 2009 phantom 48 in menorca for sale which is very nice (if googling it's the one with black bimini, colourfull cushions and a lunatic amount of fenders). Very very nice minter. Belongs to a colleague just across my office floor here so note that i have introduced you to the boat, not a broker, which should help in taking the commission out. I can email you the new build spec cos I have it here

Anyway, great plan and good luck. The capitainerie crew do not work weekends in winter so you are not going to be able to start your decade long love affair with them next weekend. How's about Friday?

2012 will be a nice season: one predator owning forumite is moving to PV; A+K's new boat will have its first full season, another forumite is on the case with a new Targa 50, nick will be gyro-ing, match will be sailing every weekend, and so on

EME will do you a deal on lumishore lights and fit them diy in UK.
 
jimmy_the_builder said:
All interesting points, thanks. I've just had a price in for aircon on the T40, and apparently there's a way they can do it without me needing to upgrade the generator. The recommendation is for 9000 btu in the front cabin, and 16000 btu in the saloon/rear cabin. I've got absolutely no idea about aircon capacities; does this sound about right?

Cheers
Jimmy
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Sound about right for a full med spec boat, however if you are looking to not overspend then as an example for our S37 I DIY enstalled a 9000btu unit for the saloon and guest cabin and didn't bother with the recommended 9000btu unit for the main cabin. We find at night we just leave the door open to the main cabin and we are comfortable. We put in a pump capable of feeding two units though incase we might want to upgrade. We don't have a genny as they are mighty unpopular when in a bay with other boaters.
We are in northern med Spain so the situation would be quite different if down south.
Hope this helps
 
jimmy_the_builder said:
Your comments about the a/c are interesting. It would be nice to be able to stay out at anchor at night without the generator running all the time.
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Except for big boats, I don't know anyone who runs their genset/ac all night at anchor but we do tend to leave it running when we go ashore for dinner just to cool the cabins down before going to sleep. I can't remember what the leccy supply is like in SoF marinas but a 16A supply doesn't run our a/c so we are often running the genset in marinas too in order to run the a/c. If it were me, I wouldn't bother with a genset upgrade but I'd try to find a way of running the a/c from the genset somehow, ay least in the cabins
 
jfm said:
So why not do the A+K method of "making friends" with the capitainerie and renting?
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I would much, much rather do this - but A has the advantage of (a) being a supremely cunning linguist and (b) deploying les enfants to great effect. Unfortunately, as you know, my diplomatic skills are rather less A+K, and rather more AK47. So my presumption was simply that I wouldn't be able to pursue the renting thing.

The easy choice here would be to sort out the aircon, do the antifoul and leg/engine service all in the UK and ship the T40 down and rent a berth. If I knew I could deffo rent a berth I would pull the trigger now.

The other big advantage of sticking with my (very well known to me) T40 is that if it all goes wrong for some reason, I've still got my perfectly good boat for UK use - and I could bring it back and carry on where I left off.

I'm in PV from Monday, so maybe I should try making a t*t of myself at the capitanierie...

Cheers
Jimmy
 
Hmm, yes, A+K are masters of this craft. They rent out the children though, so that isn't as much a problem as your langauge and the AK47

I'm happy to come with you next Friday and give it a go. What's to lose? Ask for a berth from a specific date, rahter than come across as vague "Yes, well I'd like one sometime in the future when one becomes available", which puts you bottom of list. Let's walk in waving Mikhail's best hardware and see if we can get one wef 25-1-12 which seems as good a date as any? Or find a date when A is there?
 
Deleted User said:
I can't remember what the leccy supply is like in SoF marinas but a 16A supply doesn't run our a/c so we are often running the genset in marinas too in order to run the a/c. If it were me, I wouldn't bother with a genset upgrade but I'd try to find a way of running the a/c from the genset somehow, ay least in the cabins
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Very good point and a key part of your system selection criteria. As you probably know the high current draw is only on startup, so two 9000 btu units with a start delay (as mentioned) might do you well and you can run it all night on shore suport. We opted for a 'soft start' for our a/c unit from Climma. At that time their agents in the uk were called Penguin.
I was told that units above 9000btu are a different technology and are noisier
Worth a note that we don't pay extra for lecky at our marina in Spain.
 
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air con ?

I have mine in the del sol, air con is ok but i don,y think essential, I have a modern good looking portable unit ,works perfect, By the way i sold my boat in the UK, bought one there at very sensible money, and....... and the broker really helped me with the berth( otherwise,no sale) just do it.
 
Hi speaking from experiance here, done exactly what the post original Q was, for the same reasons.
Here goes--- 2005 bought 2y old p35 actually 38 ft from SS direct .Full med spec originally from Ibiza .At the time they took in p-ex boat at the price you paid when you moved up the range .This owner had upped to a P46 .The boats took in refinished at the factory new interiors anchor etc engines serviced anti foul etc etc anything that could be removed easily replaced ,made to look as new sold on . I had already purchased berth at La Nap 2y previously and enjoyed a 11% return on the Capitol by way of the net rental income.The birth dimensions helps in the decision making process. It's the beam most important.
Next evicted tenant just a months notice if that (that your problem if go down the renting route ).Back then SS charged 3K to truck it down ,and insurance for the trip 1.5K .It arrived shrink wrapped ex factory - immaculate, all working order
For the first 2/3 seasons I felt under a little pressure from SS France to upgrade to a P47 or P53 invites to events demos ,viewings etc we have to walk past the sales centre for croissant , I almost got caught up in this .
However looking at the big picture ,new berth etc running costs and most importantly the 3 s,s that Sun, Sea ,Sand are the same for all irrespective of boat size .It's been mentioned before on the forum " enjoyment is inversely proportional to boat size"
Allow me to follow up this point Fuel price - yes I have to mention that demon
2005 78 cent/ L now 1.48 e / L
This take us back to the 12M debate, I have to say I do over 120 hours a season " blating" around at 3000 rpm =27 nts , 3200=30 nts shirt off sun on back etc Over the past 6yrs I clocked up over 5000 n miles ,been to Corsica ,Elba, all over Italy ,wear to Marseille etc . You can always find a birth in a Marina unannounced so no planning ahead needed.
Air con buy a full Med speced boat down there ie ,Geny Air, Passerelle, Teak inside as well as cock pit ( no need for socks/ shoes) Binimi, and a cool box/ drinks chiller in the cock pit. Transom shower you will in/ out the water need to rince off salt .
At around 27/30 knots mine consumes 70 / 80L h. This makes the whole thing more enjoyable . Now 6 y in I never regret not moving up .
Conclusion 12 m perfect size .
 
Absolute 41, great boat, good handling, fast, economical, plenty of room downstairs with two double cabins both en-suite, can be had with air con, generator,passerelle. Just make sure the teak is stuck down properly :D
 
Having just bought a berth in Port Vauban I can't wait to spend some time there next year. Just got back from a very wet weekend there and even then it felt good.

Looking at my port paperwork the moorings jump from 10x4 upto 15x5. Port rates PA being €5,724 & €10,908 respectively, ex tax I assume.

One that keeps catching my eye is the one advertised since the summer at €165k. No idea where.

Berth 407 on mole sud, a few up from JFM I believe??, showing for sale on here.

http://marinedirectory.ybw.com/berths/results.jsp?country=france&offset=20

I had air con units fitted to my old Portofino 47. The boat was a UK spec boat but I wanted to make it more appealing when I was selling her. We did not upgrade the gen. The Company in Poole, cost approx £5k from memory and looked the same as the factory finish.
 
jimmy_the_builder said:
Sorry for the dim question, but what are these numbers - official rental rates, or port dues?

Cheers
Jimmy
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They look like what the Port quotes for an annual berth let if you decide to try and rent. I assume VAT has to be added to them.

The numbers stack up to rent if you can get a nice berth in the port. Buying just means you know exactly where you are each month, which could command a premium to some.
 
MRC said:
One that keeps catching my eye is the one advertised since the summer at €165k. No idea where.

Berth 407 on mole sud, a few up from JFM I believe??, showing for sale on here.

http://marinedirectory.ybw.com/berths/results.jsp?country=france&offset=20
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Congrats on your purchase MRC. See you around, hopefully in sun not rain

I dont know where the €165er is. Presumably over by the shipyard or something. Or it's a red herring designed to get punters to contact the broker? It's not 407. That one is my ex-next-door-but-one neighbour, advertised a few slots further down on same page. For sale by a UK owner who is sticking out for >>€200k. It's a nice berth. The description he gives of it is daft: he says max LOA 15m even though his neighbours are/were prin57 and Sq58, and his own boat was a Swan 53. And it's on the south side of the port not the west (I cannot figure out how a sailor doesn't get that right!)
 
MRC said:
One that keeps catching my eye is the one advertised since the summer at €165k. No idea where.
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That's about a third less than it would have sold for just a year or two ago, and IMO it's not so much down to impending financial armageddon, and more related to the remaining lease period dropping into single figures. I'd always planned to sell before the 10 year mark, but in the end decided to take it on the chin as I like the berth.

It's still better to rent from a pure cost view, although at that berth price the premium for security of tenure is much more reasonable, especially if you have to add TVA to your rental figures.

Jimmy, there's only real pressure on berths from mid June to mid September, and you can try and cover this by using a local agent to find a French raggie that goes off sailing during the peak summer months (locals seem to be able to nominate who uses their berth, whereas foreigners can't). You have to pay a premium to the agent (was about +50%), on top of the normal rent to the port, but its only for 2-3 months in the summer.

For the rest of the year its relatively easy to find a berth, although you may be moved around a bit. Even if you can't stay in PV (and you most likely could), there always seems to be room in the public port at Golfe Juan out of season, which is just round the corner, and they drop the prices from Oct to May.

Having said that, it's still less hassle to own a berth if you can stretch to it, and it might be worth a cheeky offer on the €165k berth, given the time of year and the seller may be desperate? At 20% off there's no premium over renting.
 
Nick H The 165k berth is down to location --- but only what I have been told. May be nonsense.

Asking prices are still holding up (cant comment on selling) ... and folks are still selling even in Beaulieu, (the first for renewal), at higher prices with no clear effect. If there is a slight downward movement it is everywhere, so I assume purse-string related.

Surprised at your GJuan comment --- always seems much more popular with the French than PV ... and currently seems to be commanding higher prices in my opinion.

MRC The only issue with renting is that prices increase faster than inflation and security of tenure is a 'big deal' in the summer months .. even long-term renters can be removed at short notice.

Edit --- and correct me if I'm wrong but are there not 3 different 'lease' systems in operation in PV?
 
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EME said:
Nick H MRC The only issue with renting is that prices increase faster than inflation and security of tenure is a 'big deal' in the summer months .. even long-term renters can be removed at short notice.

Edit --- and correct me if I'm wrong but are there not 3 different 'lease' systems in operation in PV?
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Yes, same length of lease from what I gather, Mine was SAEM, no transfer tax to pay. (5.09% transfer tax on others, 20% on some Italian berths).
 
EME said:
Nick H The 165k berth is down to location
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For sure, as jfm says it will be over by the shipyard somewhere, and long walk to the town, but these were still selling well over €200k when I was looking.

My GJ comments are based on limited experience I suppose, but even back in 2007, when berth pressure was generally higher than it is now, we were offered a rental berth in GJ from end of Sep through to end May with just a phone call to the port. They also virtually halve the prices in the winter, which they probably wouldn't do if there was still lots of demand. I assumed this is because GJ is much quieter in the winter than Antibes town.

You're much closer to it than me though, and maybe I just phoned at the right time.
 
weather or wether

Think you are in for a surprise if you think we don·nt get rough weather in the Med.
100 kph is quite normal most weeks, with seas nothing like those round the UK coast,

Take a look at Med: designed motor boats, or fishing boats, they are both for motoring in seas that come at you from different directions at the same time, plus they are short and steep.

Then add wind that changes speed within minutes and miles etc etc,
so do a bit of research and be safer,,,,,

just offering you some food for thought,

good luck
 
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