Best/Safest Way to Gain Experience

laika said:
Really? Does anyone here, notably we upstart interlopers who started sailing later in life and have only done minimal dinghy sailing regard accidental gybes as inevitable? I think this may be one of those "tsk...people today..." type beliefs. A crash gybe on a big yacht won't just dump you in the water, it can kill people and do an awful lot of very expensive damage which is maybe why I am painfully aware of what is going on with the wind, the sea state and who is in the helm when sailing near a run and especially by the lee. I suspect dinghy sailing encourages pushing things to the limit whereas outside of top flight racing, leaving a respectful margin of error for safety is more appropriate in a big yacht.

Do they teach you the dos and dont's of preventers in dinghy sailing?
Click to expand...

On this dinghy topic, there are always detractors, who typically do not have much dinghy experience. I never understand what motivates this train of thought.

A preventer is something required on a yacht, that is easy to learn about and easy to use. It is not required on a dinghy. Likewise dinghy time doesn't teach you much about the VHF, the furling kit, the bilge pump or the seacocks.

A bit of dinghy sailing allows you to mess around with gybing at speed, sailing by the lee, gybing reach-to-reach, gybing badly and capsizing, doing 360s and follow-the-leader, and being totally out-of-control in a force 6 without danger. You can't do those things on a yacht, but it's well worth having done them.

I would say some racers push the limits. Whether dinghy folks push the limits cruising or not is a matter for their own risk appetite and there is no need to suppose the OP will do so. However, having a healthy feel for what is/isn't a safe deep broad reach is jolly useful and where the above dinghy activities come in really useful. As a helm I have never gybed accidentally on a yacht, racing or cruising, in 20k miles including the Southern Ocean and 3 Fastnets. But I have had nervous cruising friends groaning with fear as I steer 20 Deg off a dead run which I felt, knew and demonstrated was totally controlled.

Dinghy, dinghy, dinghy.
 
croc9968 said:
A great point...Seaham is behind a tidal gate +/- 3 hrs HW so my sailing time is restricted and so, it would be Sunderland and Hartlepool. Any further south and the majority of places dry out....although I am led to believe that this is a fairly safe area to sail (and certainly not as busy as the Solent where I did my CC)..The marina itself is tight, pontoons are narrow...tricky for novices
Click to expand...

Get yourself up to Blyth when this is all over and I might even buy you a beer

Andy
 
One of the unavoidable problems with sailing instruction is the tendency for pupils to get the idea that there is one way of doing things. In some instances consistency is a good thing. I insist on lines being tied off or knotted the same way every time, partly to avoid bad practice and partly so that if I need to deal with a line in a hurry or in the dark I will know what to expect. In many cases, though, flexibility is absolutely essential. There isn't just one way of coming alongside, or even reefing a sail, and it is essential to create a state of mind where an analysis of the situation becomes second nature and where several choices are possible, the least risk-free option is chosen. I see too many pig-headed sailors getting into difficulties which even I as an outsider can see are inevitable because they have chosen an impossible manoeuvre.
 
laika said:
Really? Does anyone here, notably we upstart interlopers who started sailing later in life and have only done minimal dinghy sailing regard accidental gybes as inevitable? I think this may be one of those "tsk...people today..." type beliefs. A crash gybe on a big yacht won't just dump you in the water, it can kill people and do an awful lot of very expensive damage which is maybe why I am painfully aware of what is going on with the wind, the sea state and who is in the helm when sailing near a run and especially by the lee. I suspect dinghy sailing encourages pushing things to the limit whereas outside of top flight racing, leaving a respectful margin of error for safety is more appropriate in a big yacht.

Do they teach you the dos and dont's of preventers in dinghy sailing?
Click to expand...
Regarding accidental gybes, yup, every few months we get enthusiasts for boom brakes AKA boom breakers.
Regarding preventers and dinghies, well apart from the 'JC Strap' elastic pulling the boom forwards being popular in some classes, how do you think using a preventer would generally play out in a dinghy? swimmingly perhaps?

'Pushing the limits' in dinghy racing usually involves at worst being forced to retire or do a 720 or a capsize. In 45 years of dinghy sailing, including some pretty gung-ho racing, I've known two people get carted off to hospital. One concussion, one broken ankle. Bigger boats, I've known less people doing it for less years and seen more and worse injuries. Having said that, the people who worry me most on a big boat are the small boat sailors who are great at sailing but don't have a feel for the forces on everything scaling up by a much bigger factor than boat length.
 
croc9968 said:
A great point...Seaham is behind a tidal gate +/- 3 hrs HW so my sailing time is restricted and so, it would be Sunderland and Hartlepool. Any further south and the majority of places dry out....although I am led to believe that this is a fairly safe area to sail (and certainly not as busy as the Solent where I did my CC)..The marina itself is tight, pontoons are narrow...tricky for novices
Click to expand...
The Tyne isn't far from you and the Royal Quays has 24hour access - once it re-opens. We're berthed there.
I did an online Coastal Offshore Yachtmaster theory course out of interest. It would be a good way to spend a few locked-down hours in preparation for eventual release.
 
Baddox said:
The Tyne isn't far from you and the Royal Quays has 24hour access - once it re-opens. We're berthed there.
I did an online Coastal Offshore Yachtmaster theory course out of interest. It would be a good way to spend a few locked-down hours in preparation for eventual release.
Click to expand...

Thank you, that's a great idea
 
I posted specifically the sort of experience that you can get on a dinghy, can't get on a yacht, exactly how it's relevant, all of which explains why pretty much everyone who has sailed both thinks the former is relevant, even in small doses.

There's plenty of great advice here. Sail different boats, with different people. Consider an on-board coach as alternative to a course. Take it easy. Know your limits. Read from the bible of Cunliffe. Be curious. Don't be afraid to learn on the job in clement conditions. Try some racing. Have a go in dinghies.

It's always the last part that some non-dinghy person feels the need to object to. If they can't see why it's relevant to chuck a dinghy around, they don't know what they missed. No need to be defensive about it.
 
lw395 said:
Regarding preventers and dinghies, well apart from the 'JC Strap' elastic pulling the boom forwards being popular in some classes, how do you think using a preventer would generally play out in a dinghy?
[...]
Having said that, the people who worry me most on a big boat are the small boat sailors who are great at sailing but don't have a feel for the forces on everything scaling up by a much bigger factor than boat length.
Click to expand...

Perhaps I expressed it badly but this is exactly what I was trying to say
 
johnalison said:
One of the unavoidable problems with sailing instruction is the tendency for pupils to get the idea that there is one way of doing things.
Click to expand...

That is exactly the opposite of my experience of an RYA Coastal Skipper/Yachtmaster Preparation course. Our instructor emphasised there was no 'right' way of doing anything, and that we needed to know a range of techniques to select from according to circumstances.

The emphasis was on trying out for ourselves a wide range of different techniques for each task, and discussing the advantages/disadvantages and in what circumstances each of them might be most appropriate. All four of us students were experienced in different ways (one had done a circumnavigation!) and had our own habits and cunning wheezes, and the instructor encouraged us to show each other how we'd customarily do each task, might add a few comments and suggestions/tricks of his own, then we'd practice and discuss the relative meets and uses of each.

It was emphasised that when each of us was being judged on our capabilities as skipper, it wasn't whether we were doing anything the 'right' way (whatever that is), it was whether we had a practicable approach to the current challenge, and whether we sensibly modified what we were doing, or changed to another method, if that wasn't working so well or (as sometimes happened) chance or the instructor threw a further complication into the mix.
 
I learnt to sail on my parents 30ft yacht in the mid 1960's and in the first year of the family having a boat we sailed from the Medway to Torquay and back. A couple of years later my brother and I decided to build a Mirror dinghy (we were both still at school). The other yougsters at the yacht club said we could not beat them as we were used to armchair sailing. Well the first race we entered, we came 2nd and virtually every race from then on we won. Later we raced with our parents on the East Anglian Circuit, and to be honest the dinghy sailing was no real experience to the power of a yacht and the skill in getting top boat speed. I also used to race a Laser and windsurfed.

My advice to croc9968 is to get some assistance onboard to learn how to handle your boat under power and sail. Just remember the first 100m and last 100m of any journey is the most difficult and likely to have an accident. Try and sail on as many other boats as possible, not all owners are as experienced as they should be. There is much to learn about boat handling and you will probably never stop learning - I still keep learning new things after over 50 years sailing.

This is an example of a bad owner(s). I remember being asked in the early 1970's to crew on a Trapper 28 in a race from Harwich to Ostend. This was a route I knew well. When I arrived onboard I found the owner was only a half owner. Also there was one other crew, who had never been onboard before. Then I was asked if I could navigate as neither owner was able. A quick check of equipment showed they had an echo sounder, an unswung compass, a tide table and charts that were 5 years out of date. That was the barest minimum tools you need to navigate. For the race the owners looked to me to sail the boat to its best, which did give them the best result they ever had. After arriving in Ostend, the owner I knew took the ferry back to Harwich. We remained in the harbour for 6 hours and planned to sail back overnight to Ramsgate. The co owner took the boat out of Ostend and then went to bed. So the 2 of us sailed back with only minimal sleep. However as we approached Ramsgate, the co owner got up from bed and insisted in taking his boat into the harbour. He did not trust us to do this simple task after twice crossing all the shipping lanes in the southern North Sea. What a plonker we both thought.

Just to bring you up to date I now sail singlehanded on a Westerly Fulmar and regularly sail from the Medway up the East Coast and along the South Coast. In one 3 week holiday I sailed to the Isles of Scilly in just 6 days (including one day of rest) and back again. Although I have a chart plotter, I only used 4 waypoints to get to the Isles of Scilly, as I tend not to plan in too much detail as I frequently change my destination whilst enroute. I have also sailed to the Solent and then sailed overnight to France before working my way back up the French coast. With so many experiences over the years, the only thing I have never done is sink a yacht. Whilst racing I have had a broken mast, a broken rudder, mast in the water, stood on a keel after a crew member did not follow an instruction during a spinnaker gybe, none of which did we get any outside assistance. I also had a boat badly damaged in the 1987 hurricane. So I never worry too much about what could happen but try to make sure it will not happen. The avata photo with spinnaker up is also whilst singlehanded and was taken by a Dutchman with a Bavaria 36 who I out sailed between the Solent and Eastbourne.

Once lockdown is removed, start using you boat. Learn how to get in and out of your berth, so practice for a day as practice makes perfect. Try different empty berths for experience, you will learn so much. When mooring in a marina I rarely use reverse as I try to just keep steerage way and stop the boat with a warp. It takes lots of practice to do this as you have to know how far your boat will glide without power and how it will respond to the helm. Once you are confident under power, then start to sail. Once you know the basics, you can learn about setting your sails to perform correctly. Initially you will be day sailing and returning to your berth, so navigating can wait a bit, just remember to stay up tide of your harbour. Once you are happy handling your boat under sail in all directions from beating to running, then tackle a trip along the coast to a different harbour. Once you arrive you will feel you have achieved something, your smile will say it all.
 
Concerto said:
I learnt to sail on my parents 30ft yacht in the mid 1960's and in the first year of the family having a boat we sailed from the Medway to Torquay and back. A couple of years later my brother and I decided to build a Mirror dinghy (we were both still at school). The other yougsters at the yacht club said we could not beat them as we were used to armchair sailing. Well the first race we entered, we came 2nd and virtually every race from then on we won. Later we raced with our parents on the East Anglian Circuit, and to be honest the dinghy sailing was no real experience to the power of a yacht and the skill in getting top boat speed. I also used to race a Laser and windsurfed.

My advice to croc9968 is to get some assistance onboard to learn how to handle your boat under power and sail. Just remember the first 100m and last 100m of any journey is the most difficult and likely to have an accident. Try and sail on as many other boats as possible, not all owners are as experienced as they should be. There is much to learn about boat handling and you will probably never stop learning - I still keep learning new things after over 50 years sailing.

This is an example of a bad owner(s). I remember being asked in the early 1970's to crew on a Trapper 28 in a race from Harwich to Ostend. This was a route I knew well. When I arrived onboard I found the owner was only a half owner. Also there was one other crew, who had never been onboard before. Then I was asked if I could navigate as neither owner was able. A quick check of equipment showed they had an echo sounder, an unswung compass, a tide table and charts that were 5 years out of date. That was the barest minimum tools you need to navigate. For the race the owners looked to me to sail the boat to its best, which did give them the best result they ever had. After arriving in Ostend, the owner I knew took the ferry back to Harwich. We remained in the harbour for 6 hours and planned to sail back overnight to Ramsgate. The co owner took the boat out of Ostend and then went to bed. So the 2 of us sailed back with only minimal sleep. However as we approached Ramsgate, the co owner got up from bed and insisted in taking his boat into the harbour. He did not trust us to do this simple task after twice crossing all the shipping lanes in the southern North Sea. What a plonker we both thought.

Just to bring you up to date I now sail singlehanded on a Westerly Fulmar and regularly sail from the Medway up the East Coast and along the South Coast. In one 3 week holiday I sailed to the Isles of Scilly in just 6 days (including one day of rest) and back again. Although I have a chart plotter, I only used 4 waypoints to get to the Isles of Scilly, as I tend not to plan in too much detail as I frequently change my destination whilst enroute. I have also sailed to the Solent and then sailed overnight to France before working my way back up the French coast. With so many experiences over the years, the only thing I have never done is sink a yacht. Whilst racing I have had a broken mast, a broken rudder, mast in the water, stood on a keel after a crew member did not follow an instruction during a spinnaker gybe, none of which did we get any outside assistance. I also had a boat badly damaged in the 1987 hurricane. So I never worry too much about what could happen but try to make sure it will not happen. The avata photo with spinnaker up is also whilst singlehanded and was taken by a Dutchman with a Bavaria 36 who I out sailed between the Solent and Eastbourne.

Once lockdown is removed, start using you boat. Learn how to get in and out of your berth, so practice for a day as practice makes perfect. Try different empty berths for experience, you will learn so much. When mooring in a marina I rarely use reverse as I try to just keep steerage way and stop the boat with a warp. It takes lots of practice to do this as you have to know how far your boat will glide without power and how it will respond to the helm. Once you are confident under power, then start to sail. Once you know the basics, you can learn about setting your sails to perform correctly. Initially you will be day sailing and returning to your berth, so navigating can wait a bit, just remember to stay up tide of your harbour. Once you are happy handling your boat under sail in all directions from beating to running, then tackle a trip along the coast to a different harbour. Once you arrive you will feel you have achieved something, your smile will say it all.
Click to expand...

Thankyou for a fantastic and detailed reply
 
Sandy said:
While many preach the dingy sailing is the only way to learn; it will only get your bum wet and the onboard tea making facilities are rubbish.

Do look at a range of training books as we all like different styles. Make sure you buy a copy of Reeds Skippers Handbook, a brilliant wee book packed with stuff you need to know and no waffle.
Click to expand...
A course on small keelboats is a good compromise. Your bum stays as dry as the quality of your oilskins allows, and you still get to throw the boat around with abandon; for instance, coming alongside a pontoon or a moored boat repeatedly, gybeing the mainsail four times in the space of 100 yards, or hoisting and dropping the spinnaker while moored stern to wind.
 
FFS, don't listen to us lot arguing about how many RYA instructors can dance on the head of a pin. I'd say we're all going stir crazy, but some, at least were like that before the lockdown!

Just get out there in decent conditions - F3 or thereabouts for the first few times, and do it. You'll make lots of mistakes, but if you've half an ounce of common sense and think a bit beforehand about what could go wrong and what to do about it, you won't hurt anyone or damage anything. There will be times when it isn't pretty, but that doesn't matter - just think about what went wrong and how you could keep it from going wrong next time. If you keep that attitude throughout your sailing career, you'll do better than anyone who does all the courses and thinks they know what they're doing. That isn't meant to disparage courses, just the people who think a course teaches you everything.
 
I can't remember if you said, but are you pursuing this venture solo or with another inexperienced sailing partner?
If you are going solo, a must have bit of kit you will need is some sort of autopilot that will hold the boat on a course whilst you do all the other jobs required after leaving and in preparation for returning to harbour.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top