Best rig and keel for most of your time under sail?

[Greenheart]

I didn't notice my walk had been a downwind mile across the park, till I headed back against it. Or perhaps it rose from force 3 to force 5 at that moment?

Either way, I was reminded that an hour sailing 'downhill' in a fresh breeze leaves a sailor smiling contentedly; but beating against it to cover the same distance towards a destination, is hard, slow work.

All the boats I like best are modest, comfortable, accommodating cruisers and most have average reputations for the inevitable upwind work they'll have to do.

I really hate to hear an engine running on a sailboat, so I ought to dream about fin keelers; but their parking requirements eliminate them. So what's left? Bilge keels, lifting keels and multihulls. Few of which are highly-rated for sailing upwind. Westerly Fulmar with B/K? Is there anything else?

I'd be fascinated to read forumites' honest estimates of their boats' tacking angles and leeway in, let's say, open sea conditions, force 5...

...at the point where things start to feel genuinely boisterous. Please describe your rig and keel type, too. And the builder, if possible. :encouragement:

 

[flaming]

I'd be fascinated to read forumites' honest estimates of their boats' tacking angles and leeway in, let's say, open sea conditions, force 5...

Ooooh. This should be fun.

 

[Greenheart]

Only if contributors play along...care to state your own rig/keel/estimated Force 5 open sea tacking angle and leeway, Flaming? Honestly, now...

 

[Twister_Ken]

I was surprised going from a good long-keeler to a good fin-keeler what a difference there is in pointing. The Twister was happy at just over 40º AWA. The Arcona will go like a train at 30º and even pinch a bit higher if I'm trying to get above something. Leeway about the same for both - I allow 5º unless it's really rough and the boat keeps getting stopped by waves (in which case I free off a bit anyway).

Speed also comes into it of course, but the difference in pointing angle really does get you to an upwind destination much more quickly. My acquaintance with Pythagorus has faded somewhat, but I'm sure a bear with a bigger brain could tell you what difference in windward progress you'd get at 30º and 42º AWA.

 

[GHA]

Heavy steel long keeler, goes to windward like tumbleweed.

But as a cruising boat windward is a passage planning error in the extreme.

 

[TQA]

Don't often sail hard on the wind but if I have to I go from 5'6" to 10' [ board down] and usually stick with a single reef in the main and staysail. Typical Caribbean conditions are 15 -20 knots.

I have no idea about angles but am doing better than most cruisers. The exception is some French guy that I keep meeting who has crisp paper sails and a Benny First.

 

[nickd]

I was surprised going from a good long-keeler to a good fin-keeler what a difference there is in pointing. The Twister was happy at just over 40º AWA. The Arcona will go like a train at 30º and even pinch a bit higher if I'm trying to get above something. Leeway about the same for both - I allow 5º unless it's really rough and the boat keeps getting stopped by waves (in which case I free off a bit anyway).

Speed also comes into it of course, but the difference in pointing angle really does get you to an upwind destination much more quickly. My acquaintance with Pythagorus has faded somewhat, but I'm sure a bear with a bigger brain could tell you what difference in windward progress you'd get at 30º and 42º AWA.

All other things being equal a boat tacking through 80 degrees will need to cover nearly 35% more ground than a boat tacking through 60 degrees assuming that the wind is dead on the nose and so is the destination so woul need a sunstantial increase in speed to justify that bearway

 

[mrming]

My swing keel Benny goes upwind at about 41 degrees, develops great lift from the deep, narrow chorded keel and dries out upright in our local soft mud. In a force 5 I'll have one or two reefs in the main (depending if I have crew on the the rail or not), a 100% blade jib, and will be doing around 5.2 knots through the water. Not bad for a 6.5m boat!

Edit - I can squeeze up to 36 degrees but my best VMG is achieved by sailing a bit lower.

 

[DJE]

So what's left? Bilge keels, lifting keels and multihulls. Few of which are highly-rated for sailing upwind. Westerly Fulmar with B/K? Is there anything else?

Sadler 29 twin keel. Masthead rig with No.3 genoa and probably one slab in the main in a good F5. AWA 33 to 38 degrees. Speed highly dependent on sea state, 5.5 knots in flat water or long swell, 4.0 knots in a steep chop. Tacking angle about 90 degrees. Leeway? Never really measured it but very little as far as I can see from the wake in flat water (Assymetric keels help) and I'm too busy to care too much in the conditions you describe.

BTW those are about the only conditions in which she sails up to her rating against modern lightweight boats.

 

[DJE]

I was surprised going from a good long-keeler to a good fin-keeler what a difference there is in pointing. The Twister was happy at just over 40º AWA. The Arcona will go like a train at 30º and even pinch a bit higher if I'm trying to get above something.

I suspect that's not all down to the keel. You've also changed from a masthead rig with overlapping genoa to a modern fractional rig with high aspect sails and narrow sheeting angles.

 

[Twister_Ken]

I suspect that's not all down to the keel. You've also changed from a masthead rig with overlapping genoa to a modern fractional rig with high aspect sails and narrow sheeting angles.

True.

 

[KellysEye]

>Heavy steel long keeler, goes to windward like tumbleweed.

Our steel long keeler with cutaway forfoot went upwind at 40 degrees. On the ARC finish line we saw a boat beating at an extraordinary 12 degrees to the wind the closest of over 200 boats that arrived, having talked to the other finish line boats. I went to talk to them but can't remember the make, racing boat obviously.

 

[AHoy2]

Most of my time under sail I am single handed, I avoid going close hauled, I also like to sail in shoal water and don't race for real - but I do enjoy a bit of a challenge in my sailing and not being a herd member. So the best rig and keel for me at this stage of my sailing life is a gaff cutter (with topsail natch) with shoal draft and long keel. A diesel inboard does the windward stuff better on a short slow boat so I have one of those to round off the setup. Big bonus is I don't have to look clever going to windward and we can be surprisingly good off the wind. No wind instruments fitted but my guess for best angle on the wind is about 35 deg Big bonus is the sailing lifestyle that accompanies the rig.

 

[dunedin]

Actually, for sailing enjoyment I find tacking to windward (on a well designed and set up boat) can often be much more fun than going downwind
- in light winds it is one of the fastest points of sail as the apparent wind makes a big difference
- lots of tactical opportunities to make gains or losses by choosing the right direction and tacking places to gain advantage

Clearly not so good for covering distances, but that is a different thing

PS Deep lead fin keel, blade rudder and sloop rig

 

[mrming]

Very interesting replies so far. Seems a lot of cruising boats point higher than my racy-ish little boat with nice laminate sails. Which is odd because in our racing fleet with a mixture of small boats we are one of the highest pointers.

Are people considering best VMG when they sail at 40 degrees and under? I can point higher but my best VMG is achieved when I crack a little bit.

 

[Greenheart]

I'm very interested too..thanks for all replies.

Ashamed to admit, it's only in recent years that I realised the importance of the traveller position in maintaining upwind power during stronger winds, letting the sail out (turning its thrust forward rather than sideways), while still maintaining the shape it takes when sheeted in hard.

I often hear that conventional multihull cruisers don't go to windward well, but I wonder just how rotten they are? Granted most have shallow keels and big square bridgedecks, but just how seriously do these increase the tacking angle? 110°? 120°? Worse? I really don't know, so I tend to imagine that boats which are reputedly poor upwind, really can't do anything to windward in breezy open-sea conditions, except start their engines. Is it that bad?

 

[LadyInBed]

Cruising (shorter) main mast, bilge keel, ketch.
The jury is out this year as I have new sails but it has got to be better than the old ones, I tacked through 110° with them good job that I don't sail upwind very often.
As for wind, it need a F5 to get the boat moving!

 

[Greenheart]

I have new sails ...got to be better than the old ones, I tacked through 110°...I don't sail upwind very often. As for wind, it need a F5 to get the boat moving!

Oh! Your boat is one that I envy more than most, here! What a pity, but thanks for your honesty.

 

[snowleopard]

But as a cruising boat windward is a passage planning error in the extreme.

If it blows up while I'm at sea I'll put up with it but my rule for setting out is max 4 ahead, 6 behind.

For effective windward performance you need a deep fin or dagger board and a tall taut rig with well-cut sails and a narrow sheeting angle. The number of hulls doesn't really matter. Most of us compromise with longer and shallower keels and lower aspect ratio rigs and avoid too much windward work. The boats with the best windward performance are a PITA when cruising - unable to take the ground or enter shallow harbours, uncomfortable to live on and wet at sea. An Open 60 with a 4-metre swing keel is pretty impressive to windward - as long as you only go into deep harbours.

 

[Greenheart]

The boats with the best windward performance are a PITA when cruising - unable to take the ground or enter shallow harbours, uncomfortable to live on and wet at sea.

Thanks Snowleopard, that's as I thought. I'll be glad to pick a boat on the low-performance, high-comfort side.

Still glad to hear suggestions of good compromises though.