Best Boat for European Waterways

[SP2]

With a view to semi retirement in a few years time, SWMBO and I have been contemplating a few years ditch crawling in France, Belgium and the Netherlands. Plan is to take the boat over in the spring and then spend the decent months cruising, returning to UK for maintenance etc. over the winter.

We realise that Spectrum Too (slow ahead 6-7 knots) is not the ideal vessel to do this in, and climbing in and out of the aft cabin will become progresively more difficult as the limbs start to pack up.

So we are staring to think of our next boat and the features it should have.

Some of our thoughts so far include outside steering position rather than flybridge; displacement or SD hull; engines easily maintained; comfortable slow speed handling; separate cabin with heads for visitors; 12 - 14 metres in length (there will be usually just be the two of us aboard) and capable of sea crossings Ramsgate/Calais and Solent/Cherbourg.

This is a longer term project for us and in the next couple of years we will be doing the trips that Spectrum Too deserves, namely Channel Islands, South West (to be reunited with Spectrum One!) and North Europe Coast. However we want to keep our eyes open to any possible deals that might turn up.

The Forum's esteemed wisdom is awaited /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[rickp]

[ QUOTE ]
Some of our thoughts so far include outside steering position rather than flybridge; displacement or SD hull; engines easily maintained; comfortable slow speed handling; separate cabin with heads for visitors; 12 - 14 metres in length (there will be usually just be the two of us aboard) and capable of sea crossings Ramsgate/Calais and Solent/Cherbourg.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lots of lovely dutch craft to fit this bill, I'd suggest. I'd obviously recommend looking at an Elling - not an outside helm, but I'm not sure you'd miss that with the massive "sunroof".

Rick

 

[totopalm]

Visit a few Dutch boat yards, you will get some great ideas,
they are to my mind the masters of producing boats for
inland waterways,and capable of sea passages
Wish you well with your purchase, and many happy
hours afloat. Cheers Tony

 

[Renegade_Master]

Could do worse than a Broom, low air draft outside helm but not fly, semi dis so will take estuary/coastal work something like a Crown 37 maybe

 

[pheran]

Not sure I'd go for the Elling. Nice boat but that fixed wheel house is far too restrictive, even in Holland. There would be places you just couldn't go and even on the bigger waterways there would be times you'd have to wait for bridges that others can slip under. For Holland, airdraft of about 3.75 meters or less will let you go to most of the worth-while places but for France getting down to 3 meters would be even better. Again for France, watch the water draft. Aim for a meter or less. 12-14 meters length is comfortable for two for longish periods (ours is 14.8 and we manage including the bath!!) Displacement hull, single engine preferably non-turbo. The trick is to find a boat that will suit you in both Holland and France given the latter has the more restrictive contraints. We didn't and are now in the process of having to change before we move from Holland. Feel free to PM me if you want any more detail of our experiences.

 

[saskia]

I've been cruising the French waterways for a month or so each summer for the last five or six years, and gradually getting Saskia (bought in Holland) in shape for longer spells aboard when finally released from the office desk. I agree with most of what has been said - probably 12 metres is the minimum length, and two heads/showers. You'll need good sized water tanks, of course - and fuel. Waterside pumps can be scarce. A single prop is less likely to touch the sides of canals or locks. I don't have a bow thruster, and sometimes wish I had when it's windy and you are waiting about in a confined space, or manoeuvring in a marina. I would have inside (centre wheelhouse with good access) and outside steering positions - it can be very hot in the summer and surprisingly cold (and wet) in spring and autumn. As for equipment: shore power circuit is essential and, apart from the obvious, I am delighted to have a small washing machine that lets me avoid queuing at marina laundrettes. I agree with Pheran on air draft - I can even get under the barrage into the centre of Strasburg - with about four centimetres to spare! And at about 90 cms draft I still sometimes touch bottom!

Hope you find the dream boat.

 

[SP2]

Rick, Tony, Sun Coast, Pheran and Saskia

Thanks for your comments, guys. Plenty to think about there.

Had thought it better to have non turbo diesels but hadn't really considered the merit of a single engine. Have always crossed the channel with two of the things - and never had a problem with either. However previous owner of Spectrum Too blew an engine just off Eastbourne (but think he just didn't maintain it too well).

I know the Dutch waterways quite well although SWMBO hasn't been there yet. Maybe we will spend a summer holiday there on Spectrum Too next year and get acquainted. Is buying a steel boat in Holland an easy experience? If it is, we might start there and then look to cruise further east and south over the following years, taking account of the air draft issues.

Are there any brokers in Holland with decent web sites?

Thanks again for your replies.

 

[saskia]

One engine also means more storage space...you don't really need a great deal of power, though it can be fun on the big rivers, of course.

I found Saskia by searching the web and found an association of dutch brokers. You just pushed in the parameters, and out came dozens of possibles. I set up a tour of likely prospects over a long weekend, and found Saskia first time. The broker was extremely helpful and did everything necessary - seemed to be on my side: forced the owner to change the engine when the survey showed it was clapped out!

Best of luck.

 

[miket]

I was going to suggest Dutch steel, single engine and why not buy in Holland. Far more variety than over here and you don't have to worry about the Channel crossing.

In your original post you indicate returning to UK each year for maintenance. Why? Holland is much cheaper, much more efficient and if you want, you can find an undercover wet mooring for the winter.
Plenty of Dutch websites:
Holland Yachting
Lengers
De Valk
Sleuvik
I bought a Broom 37 from DeVaart Yachting at Lelystad, south of Ijselmeer/ Markesmeer. Small broker but picked me up at Amsterdam, spent all day with me and returned me to the airport in the evening. Also the boat was immaculate. No problem with paperwork. Just check out exactly what you need through the RYA beforehand.
Solitaire suggested Broom for the canals. Most had twin engines, all turbo charged. I would suggest OTT for EU canals and older Perkins engined ones probably not great for spares in EU now.
Take note of Pheran. He has done it and enjoyed it.

 

[nedmin]

had 2 Pedro,s one 2 engines last one single, too old to be crawling round hard to get at engines!! Present one outside steering, overall height down to 2.7 metres with screen down.ideal for Dutch and French canals,also ok for sea work,read articles about Sea Swallow in MBM (my old boat )now renamed.Try info@pedro-boat.nl as they have boats listed new and used, or brokers as others suggest.

 

[jcmmarine]

The only thing I have to add is do not think too short term. Inland waterways boats are ideal for inland waterways, but after going through France there is the Med.

We spend far more time inland than at sea but I personaly am not keen on gong to sea with a single engine. I have spent a fair abount of time time inland France, Holland & Belgium and having a good sized keel allows easy running on one engine most of the time with comensurate economy. All you have to remember is that, when going alongside a shelving bank, stop the inboard engine before geting to close.
My boat is not ideal and at 3.4m air draft there are some places we cannot go. But she is a good compromise with 2 none-turbo engines and a very subtantial keel that is deeper than the props. (Don't be fooled by the photo, she is a 30 year old heavy semi displacent Princes 37) We took a long time deciding on her over a Broom 37, but she is wider, feels bigger and we like having the aft cockpit and patio doors in the sun.

Everything is a compomise and basicaly up to you, but last year, when traveling from Nieupoort to Flushing it blew up more than forcast and, with wind against tide as we entered the Westerschelde, I was glad we were not in a single engined dutch steel.

John

 

[blueglass]

We have a S/D Atlantic 38 which we have used mostly at sea but are now on the French waterways and so far she is shaping up well. Similar layout to the Broom 38's already mentioned but with more cockpit space which is important cos the sun shines more here or at least so I am told. No complaints yet from the twin turbos and like you I would not want to relinquish 2 engines unless totally committed to inland waterways ( which I'm not) I know there is a downside to 2 engines but the up side is easier close quarters manouverabilty and you still have a good sea boat when you want one.
As regards turbo/non turbo, probably non turbo best. We switch one engine off and travel on the increased revs of one engine on long stretches, then go back to 2 when you need to moor or negotiate a lock. Best of both worlds in some ways

 

[1peejay2]

I can't guarantee that Succes are the best boats for the canals and rivers but they have considerable experience in these matters, give excellent value for money, both new and used.
You may care to visit www.succesyachts.nl or www.valwyattmarine.co.uk (UK Agents) and form your own views.

When we were looking for our boat both Succes and VW Marine couldn't have given us more help and advice - and no, I'm not connected to either company other than a very satisfied customer.

 

[SP2]

Thanks, Miket.

Some interesting sites and boats, for sure.

[ QUOTE ]
In your original post you indicate returning to UK each year for maintenance. Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

We are initially planning 3 - 4 month cruises in Europe and whilst the boat will stay where she is, we will need to come back from time to time for work reasons. We do use the boat during the winter and want to have that facility. I also like doing the maintenance myself as far as possible.

Agree your comments re Perkins - friend is having all sorts of trouble with his HT6354s on his Broom. Personally I know my way around the 6 cylinder Ford block quite well now.

My family cruised an Ocean 37 through Holland in the 70's - great for the wider waterways where speed was not an issue.

 

[SP2]

Thanks, nedmin.

Visited the www.pedro.nl site. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[SP2]

Thanks, John

Does your air draft stop you going anywhere important?

My father looked at a P37 when they were first launched - remember we were left to pull it apart by the nice salesman at Harleyford. Then 25% VAT introduced and bye bye any thought of a new baot.

Oh happy days.

 

[SP2]

Hi blueglass, and thanks.

Yes, I'm just not sure I can live with one throttle control and one set of dials to worry about.

Hope you are enjoying your cruising.

 

[SP2]

Thanks Valentine14, I will give them a look.

 

[pheran]

Just a couple of further points on the single or twin debate...........

1.Running a twin-engined boat on just one engine won't necessarily save you fuel. There was a quite erudite discussion on the subject on one of these boards a while back and the sum of several people experience was that at low engine speeds (which are inevitable in this context) the drag etc of the 'idle' propellor was more or less equal to the small amount of fuel the engine would have used had it been working. This has been borne out my own experiences.

2.The undesireability of running a turbo engine at low revs for long periods is well-established. Turning one off will enable you to increase the speed of the one in use but this is marginal and of no real use in avoiding the down-side effects of low-speed operation. For example, to do 6kts in my present boat I need 1200rpm on two engines or 1500rpm on one ie the turbo still doesn't whistle!!

3.Most modern hydraulic drive gearboxes are designed to be driven, not freewheel as they would were the engine not on and the shaft was not locked. As a result they can suffer some expensive long-term damage if used in this way (and [--word removed--] all your expectations of increased reliability from two engines of course!!)

 

[jcmmarine]

My detailed logs (see thread on Logs) prove it to me, Whilst there is fluctuation due to wind and seastate, my averages over the last 2 years is as follows
1500 revs x 2 engines = 8.5 knots @ 1.9 MPG.
1500 revs x 1 engine = 7 knots @ 3 MPG.
1000 revs x 2 Engines = 6.8 Knots @ 2.8 MPG
1000 revs x 1 Engine = 4.8 Knots @ 3.8 MPG

However I have talked with planing hull boat owners who do not get anywhere near these economies of single engine running. I have a deep keel and when single engine running my rudders ar not far from central. I would guess that, on a planning hull, single engine running would require a fair amount of rudder and concequent drag. having a decent keel also means that I am fairly manoeverable on 1 shaft.