Berthing scenario - advice ...??

[Ubergeekian]

If one was the red boat in the picture below, trying to return to the berth outlined in green, how would you go about it?

32' AWB - prop kicks the stern to port (fairly strongly) in reverse.
Wind gusty ~F5 (16-25 kts indicated) blowing from NNW (assuming N is straight up).
Almost at the end of an alley, drawing is roughly to scale.
One novice crew + you.

What's hard about this - am I missing some subtle complication? Head up the fairway with the nose right a bit to counter the wind. At the end of the finger whack in a burst of reverse which will slow her down and spin her round to point in. Slow forward straight into wind, then a touch right and let the wind blow her onto the finger. No biggie if the back end touches first.

Or at least that's what I did in almost precisely similar circumstances to get into my current berth, and it worked fine.

 

[mcframe]

I don't see why this is a problem.
Just turn into the berth and stop. Gentle use of throttle to balance the wind, the small W component of the wind takes the bow toward the finger. Aim to put the centre cleat close to the end of the finger.
Secure with a midships line, then stern and bowlines and walk the boat forward to its parking place.
The main thing is to keep steerage way on until the bow is past head to wind, or the bow will blow around. If this happens, quickly adopt plan B and back in.

Seems reasonable - if you're not gonna go astern, then it doesn't matter which way it kicks ;-)

Oh, and you might think, 'there's no tide', but be prepared for it to appear from nowhere

If the wind can shift 180 degrees in 6 posts, then it /must/ be a YM exam, so the tide will appear just before the 1m viz fog comes down and the crew falls overboard, but *after* the engine fails

 

[Poignard]

Instead of some of the incredibly complicated manouvres suggested so far, wouldn't it be simpler to sail in on a close reach under mainsail only; spilling wind as necessary to keep the speed under control? Then luff into the vacant berth on your port side whilst your crew steps off with a midship line and takes a turn round a cleat. Then drop the mainsail and winch yourself across to the berth on your starboard side.

 

[mcframe]

Instead of some of the incredibly complicated manouvres suggested so far, wouldn't it be simpler to sail in on a close reach under mainsail only; spilling wind as necessary to keep the speed under control? Then luff into the vacant berth on your port side whilst your crew steps off with a midship line and takes a turn round a cleat. Then drop the mainsail and winch yourself across to the berth on your starboard side.

Yah Big Gurlie Blouse!

Mainsail?

A Glénans marin would do it with nothing more than a spinny, an anchor and a Gauloises :->

 

[john_morris_uk]

I am interested in some people's suggestions that 'tick over ahead' will get the job done. Although a firm believer in 'as slow as you can', the other half of the equation is 'as fast as you must'. In some lightweight boats tick over ahead is never going to be enough to retain control into 25 knots of wind.

You need to keep control of the boat without the keel and rudder stalling out. The boat will start to go sideways very quickly and with the bow paying off if you don't retain control!

Stern first might work very well - but it depends how well the boat gathers stern way and the ability to maneuver when going astern. F'wd into the port berth and warp her across seems a safe option.

 

[misterg]

If the wind can shift 180 degrees in 6 posts, then it /must/ be a YM exam, so the tide will appear just before the 1m viz fog comes down and the crew falls overboard, but *after* the engine fails

Not a YM exam, or a fiendish "WNS?"; just wounded pride last Saturday.

I originally drew the wind arrow like a windex - i.e. pointing in the direction that the wind was blowing *from*, but that seemed to cause confusion, so I flipped it round the other way.

Instead of some of the incredibly complicated manouvres suggested so far, wouldn't it be simpler to sail in on a close reach under mainsail only; spilling wind as necessary to keep the speed under control? Then luff into the vacant berth on your port side whilst your crew steps off with a midship line and takes a turn round a cleat. Then drop the mainsail and winch yourself across to the berth on your starboard side.

I would have done it that way, but wanted to spare my crew the short tacking up the 15m wide north-south fairway from the marina entrance

Thanks all, just trying to learn from my experiences

Andy

 

[Tex]

Wind Change

Now what if the wind moves round 90 degrees to NE and prop walk is to Stbd?

 

[oldfatgit]

Not read every post but my mooring is very similar, save usually have my neighbour in the vacant port side to berth. Secret is to get boat in (going forwards) and rely on fenders to protect all from damage. Always have a beam line rigged on starboard side with a large loop in the end. When wind is as drawn (from north), motor in bow first keeping as slow as possible but fast enough to get the head through the wind. Crew (usually me) drop loop over end cleat on pontoon and motor gently onto it in order to settle alongside. When wind is from the east (as drawn) then do same but when all goes wrong rest on neighbour (suitably fended) and crew (under some pressure) attempts to drop beam line over same cleat (using boat hook if necessary) and haul her over so engine can be used in forward as originally intended. Most common situation, however, is with a strong westerly (of course) when same procedure is applied. If all goes wrong then rest on fenders and hop ashore with beam line.

The point is that the safest location is in the intended berth with engine control to enable boat to be held steady until line is attached. When the loop in the beam line is attached and with engine in forward tick over and opposite lock on helm results in a steady situation which from which springs, bow and stern lines can be attached. Being a long keeler reversing is not an option for me.

 

[mcframe]

I would have done it that way, but wanted to spare my crew the short tacking up the 15m wide north-south fairway from the marina entrance

Why do you need crew to short tack?

Thanks all, just trying to learn from my experiences

#include <std_experience.h>
"Good judgment comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgment."
"Superior skippers are those who use their superior judgment to avoid those situations where they might have to use their superior skills."


After a minor incident^Wexperience involving engine failure on a sailing race boat last year, I "proved a point" (the next weekend) by single-handed'ly (SWMBO & kids below) lifting anchor and short tacking 500 yards up-bay, then rafting-up under furled genoa - in the dark - push the envelope! (but from the inside, with the engine running in neutral, just in case

Hang on - 32' AWB? Don't you have any oars on board? ;->

 

[misterg]

I am interested in some people's suggestions that 'tick over ahead' will get the job done. Although a firm believer in 'as slow as you can', the other half of the equation is 'as fast as you must'. In some lightweight boats tick over ahead is never going to be enough to retain control into 25 knots of wind.

You need to keep control of the boat without the keel and rudder stalling out. The boat will start to go sideways very quickly and with the bow paying off if you don't retain control!

That's basically what happened - I hadn't anticipated just how quickly it would go pear-shaped.

For what it's worth, the boat wouldn't make any headway against this wind on tick-over - I used the engine in ahead to take the load off the bow spring temporarily when we were singling up the lines to leave the berth, and needed to increase the revs above tick-over to do this.

Stern first might work very well - but it depends how well the boat gathers stern way and the ability to maneuver when going astern. F'wd into the port berth and warp her across seems a safe option.

I would say she's quite slow to gather stern way - needing maybe 10 seconds to scrub off steerage way forwards and start moving astern if one is to avoid dramatic swervs (due to)/(in order to compensate for) prop-walk. She steers OK backwards, but one needs to keep a firm grip of the tiller, and I've only ever practiced in light winds / calm (when there's no sailing ).

It's undoubtedly about boat handling skills (or lack thereof ) rather than being a tricky situation per-se. Just grateful for the pointers.

Thanks,

Andy

 

[JayBee]

If the wind can shift 180 degrees in 6 posts, then it /must/ be a YM exam, so the tide will appear just before the 1m viz fog comes down and the crew falls overboard, but *after* the engine fails

Ha Ha Ha!

The wind shifted a lot more than 180 degrees. As far as I can follow it, the wind went from NNW to SSE (or was it SSE to NNW?) to NNE. Can't say how many degrees that is because we don't know if it backed or veered to the NNE!

Does it really matter?

Why are the smilies not working??

 

[jimi]

I am interested in some people's suggestions that 'tick over ahead' will get the job done. Although a firm believer in 'as slow as you can', the other half of the equation is 'as fast as you must'. In some lightweight boats tick over ahead is never going to be enough to retain control into 25 knots of wind.

In my boat , when handling in close situations I tend to use both the throttle and rudder as on/off switches. Big advantage with a substantial prop kick and prop wash against spade rudder. ... and a rudder will only work with water flowing over it. I still think any yacht will stern bore in a f4/5 the bow will pay off as soon as you slow, so you might as well use it!

 

[westernman]

In my boat (52ft heavy displacement long keeler with cut away forefoot) the width of the fairway is not enough to be able to turn into the berth against that amount of wind - not even if doing 5Knots +.

In which case I would have to go in backwards.
The wind will naturally turn me in almost the right direction. The wind will push the bows onto the finger first (fender just in front of the shrouds). Best to attach a line to the center cleat as far back down the finger as possible.
Once that is tight, i can take my time to attach the stern line and then winch it in - or if I am lazy I can use a burst on the motor while steering to starboard to wash the stern in to the finger (without any rubbing of the bow on the finger since that line to the center cleat is tight).

In my boat, I can't steer going backwards. So I would drive down the fairway close to the boats on the N side and then turn hard to port just after passing your neighbours berth. I.e. a little bit too far down the fairway.
Stop the boat before ramming anything on the S side.
I would then be pointing SW. The wind will then blow the bows around as I give short bursts on reverse to hold position with the stern as close as possible to the boat to the N. Then wait as the wind brings the bows in line with the wind, a few bursts to hold your position and you will eventually end up with the stern in the right position to be able to reverse in. Here the trick is to let the wind slowly do the work for you. (I don't like fast when berthing).

If your neighbour is there, then I would attach a bow line from your bow to his bow, another line from your stern to his, or a point on the quay and then winch the your boat slowly in. The bow line will take the most load. Otherwise you will scrape the bow on the finger. (I assume the berth is not wide enough with him there for you to be able to have the stern right in and the bows lined up with the wind and not touching the finger).

You could do the latter, even if your neighbour is not there with lines onto the W finger instead - but it is more work than just reversing in.

 

[V1701]

What's hard about this - am I missing some subtle complication? Head up the fairway with the nose right a bit to counter the wind. At the end of the finger whack in a burst of reverse which will slow her down and spin her round to point in. Slow forward straight into wind, then a touch right and let the wind blow her onto the finger. No biggie if the back end touches first.

Or at least that's what I did in almost precisely similar circumstances to get into my current berth, and it worked fine.

As a novice with slightly smaller AWB than OP, this is what I would try to do, firstly without the burst of reverse, with plenty of fenders, inc. one right at the bow, one right at stern, I have four at the moment so that leaves two, so if I buy another 6 that gives me a fender every 3 feet. Should be fine...

 

[porth]

One advantage of sailing in the Med is that you get used to reversing in everywhere! This one looks easy (wouldn't have said that three years ago...). Looks enough space to reverse all the way in or turn off the berth. Use the wind/propwalk/bursts of throttle to steer into the berth. Fenders everywhere obviously and mooring ropes as required.
BIG advantage of going in stern first against the wind is that if you cock it up the weathercocking effect HELPS you to sort things out, instead of throwing your boat around and worsening the situation. Well worth practicing and lots of fun when you get the knack because it is much easier than it looks
My son (8 years old) loved doing this and steering out of the berth, only gave the wheel to me once the boat was out of the hole and driving straight! (BORING dad...)

 

[Robin]

That's basically what happened - I hadn't anticipated just how quickly it would go pear-shaped.

For what it's worth, the boat wouldn't make any headway against this wind on tick-over - I used the engine in ahead to take the load off the bow spring temporarily when we were singling up the lines to leave the berth, and needed to increase the revs above tick-over to do this.



I would say she's quite slow to gather stern way - needing maybe 10 seconds to scrub off steerage way forwards and start moving astern if one is to avoid dramatic swervs (due to)/(in order to compensate for) prop-walk. She steers OK backwards, but one needs to keep a firm grip of the tiller, and I've only ever practiced in light winds / calm (when there's no sailing ).

It's undoubtedly about boat handling skills (or lack thereof ) rather than being a tricky situation per-se. Just grateful for the pointers.

Thanks,

Andy

Just an additional comment that might help. I know you said there was no tide to complicate the question but we often assume that when in fact there is.

At some stages of the tide in our marina it runs quite fast across the end of the boats yet in the berth itself there is no visible movement, probably because a long row of deep keels has prevented it. The result of this is that as you make the turn in, the bow gets into the no-tide area whilst the stern can be moving sideways quite rapidly in the tide. This is one reason why I favour the go past and approach back towards the finger method because it allows for a final correction to be made. We have frequently had to warn visitors of the unexpected tide and initially they think we are daft, (tide, what tide?) until they have had to abort a couple of times that is!

We were surprised by this in Cherbourg visitor marina some years back when about to leave early on morning. A nearby French crew came over and offered help, even though it was seemingly a simple departure, 'because of the current'. They were right, it was just after LW springs and the unexpected flow screwed the boat around hard as soon as we let go and started to reverse out. I had never noticed this effect there before in hundreds of visits yet have seen it since. One time an incoming Brit boat had 3 failed goes to get into the berth next to us each time being swept onto the finger away from the gap. Ten minutes later it would have been easy!

 

[jwilson]

Being a long keeler reversing is not an option for me.

Totally different animal: although you can't often do a controlled figure-of-8 in astern in a long-keeler everything else is much more predictable, and they don't blow sideways as soon as the keel stalls, which is as soon as you go really slowly.

I came to modern boats suddenly after years of a long-keeler, and it gave me some very embarrassing moments approaching marina berths that would have been very easy to get into forwards in my old long-keeled boat.

 

[jwilson]

In my boat , when handling in close situations I tend to use both the throttle and rudder as on/off switches. Big advantage with a substantial prop kick and prop wash against spade rudder. ... and a rudder will only work with water flowing over it. I still think any yacht will stern bore in a f4/5 the bow will pay off as soon as you slow, so you might as well use it!

I do not pretend to be an expert handler under power but I tend to agree with the on-off switch idea - big blasts of power each way for very short periods, either to gather sternway or to thump the angled rudder blade with some fast-moving water. This is usually what I do in a modern AWB now, unless the berthing situation is easy enough to go in very slowly. As I posted in another entry dead slow is death to turning to windward in a modern boat - the bow just blows off.

On a long-keeler I could often get some genuine control in reverse by a full throttle astern for a few seconds, then going out of gear. For the time you were powering all you had was propwalk, but once moving astern at a knot or two the rudder would exert quite a bit of control. If all you ever used was slow astern the boat never really answered the rudder.

 

[lw395]

I think what we're seeing here is that boats vary a lot.
I know in my last boat, the turn into wind and stop method would work, it would just be a matter of judging approach speed and when to give a burst of astern as the boat is still turning.
Whereas reversing was always unpredictable in a cross wind. Whether the bow would blow around faster or slower than the whole boat goes sideways seemed to vary a lot.
I found I got a lot better at close quarters stuff after a few days practice and rusty again after a lay off of more than a month, or if I'd been using another boat a lot.
Know the boat and get some practice where it is safe to do so is my way I think.

jwilson's note about getting a bit of way on astern then going in to neutral helped in the shortkeeled lightwave too, once it was moving astern you could engage low revs and have control, but you wanted a bit of space to start off astern, as the initial direction could be a little random, possibly due to the turbulent prop wash over the keel.
So if the final approach must be astern, maybe reverse the whole way in?
Trouble is it's hard to judge where you are going at the same time as watching the bow, particularly on a yacht with the wheel right aft.
Also get plenty of adequate fenders just in case. Four is never enough.

 

[Ubergeekian]

As a novice with slightly smaller AWB than OP, this is what I would try to do, firstly without the burst of reverse, with plenty of fenders, inc. one right at the bow, one right at stern, I have four at the moment so that leaves two, so if I buy another 6 that gives me a fender every 3 feet. Should be fine...

I'm a great believer in fenders. I have to be. Better to whack in than miss, I say.