Beneteau 361 Rudder removal advice needed

[SCFoster]

Have a 2001 Beneteau 361 with heavy steering.
Now that it's on the hard for the winter, decided to tackle removing the rudder.
Dug the required hole under the rudder, disconnected the autopilot arm, loosened the two cable tensioner bolts, removed the two bolts that run through the rudder stock.
Did not see a split in the rudder quadrant, where a bolt would be tightened to pinch the rudder stock. So, I should be good with hardware removal.

Rotated the rudder back and forth and rocked it. Was able to drop the rudder a good 1.25", then it stopped. Installed the emergency tiller and tapped on the top of it, yielding about another 1/4" drop.

Now the top of the rudder shaft is about 1/8" above the rudder quadrant. I don't want to go bashing on the emergency tiller, if there's something I'm missing.

Anyone have experience dropping the rudder? Thoughts?

 

[coopec]

Are these links any help?

Beneteau 36 rudder removal | Sailboat Owners Forums
forums.sailboatowners.com › ... › Ask A Beneteau Owner

Nov 2, 2018 — It appears I will have to remove my rudder as they are inline. ... No need to drop the rudder to change the cutlass bearing. ... Re: Beneteau 361- can I remove the cutlass bearing without removing shaft ... the skeg, getting that lot out involved the use of long thin self tappers in the manner of packing removers.
Beneteau 361 - replace rudder bearings?? | Sailboat Owners ...
11 Nov 2009
Beneteau 331 Rudder Play | Sailboat Owners Forums
1 Dec 2009
Beneteau 361 stiff steering | Sailboat Owners Forums
31 July 2020
Beneteau 361 below deck autopilot options | Sailboat Owners ...
3 Jan 2018

Beneteau 361 bottom rudder bearing | YBW Forum
forums.ybw.com › beneteau-361-bottom-rudder-bearin...

Dec 6, 2015 — We wanted to change the Volvo stern seal. ... Any content, information, or advice found on social media platforms and the wider Internet, ... Beneteau 361 bottom rudder bearing ... But to remove it we had to drop the rudder.
Beneteau 361- can I remove the cutlass bearing without ...
20 Jan 2009
Beneteau 411 Rudder Bearings | YBW Forum
29 Dec 2010
Beneteau 331 vibration | YBW Forum
1 July 2014
Beneteau 361? | YBW Forum
25 June 2014

 

[RichardS]

I don't know if it will help but my rudders often stick after a few inches in the bottom bearing when I drop them. It's caused by the build up of sea life deposits on the rudder stem which jam in in bottom bearing. Sometimes I can free in by twisting backwards and forwards to grind it off as the rudder slowly drops but sometimes it gets so stiff that I run some acid down from the top of the rudder stem and that soon fizzes it away and the rudder falls out.

Richard

 

[typhoonNige]

When my Typhoon’s steering got very stiff it was also caused by fouling on the stock between and within the bearings. This also made dropping the rudder problematic but once off, the stock was easily cleaned by brushing on some hydrochloric acid. That was two years ago and all is still good.
My rudder stock is stainless. Don’t try this on aluminium!!

 

[greeny]

So where is it tight? If you push up on the rudder, does it go up ok taking the quadrant with it and then drop down easily. In that case it's the quadrant that's tight on the shaft and stopping it dropping. If so, is the shaft belled out even slightly at the top and jamming as it goes down through the quadrant. The access doesn't look great to try and remedy any problem in there. Is there really only the one bolt that holds the quadrant in position on the shaft? It doesn't look that meaty on the photographs although they can be misleading . There's not any grub screws or keyway is there? In the absence of a "split" in the quadrant it must rely on being a close sliding fit to stop it wobbling.

 

[dankilb]

You might find that an ‘aggressive’ penetrant, like PBlaster, would help remove any deposits while easing the stock through the bearing.

And/or you could deploy something other than the emergency tiller arm to try and drift it out (large impact socket on a couple of extensions perhaps?)?

 

[SCFoster]

So where is it tight? If you push up on the rudder, does it go up ok taking the quadrant with it and then drop down easily. In that case it's the quadrant that's tight on the shaft and stopping it dropping. If so, is the shaft belled out even slightly at the top and jamming as it goes down through the quadrant. The access doesn't look great to try and remedy any problem in there. Is there really only the one bolt that holds the quadrant in position on the shaft? It doesn't look that meaty on the photographs although they can be misleading . There's not any grub screws or keyway is there? In the absence of a "split" in the quadrant it must rely on being a close sliding fit to stop it wobbling.

Thanks for the all the quick replies.
The rudder still turns with one finger, so it's not tight with either upper or lower bushings.
I believe that it is the quadrant that is tight to the rudder stock. Was doing this by myself and of course forgot the lift to jack up the rudder if required.
Will put a lift under it today to confirm the rudder lift easily, taking the quadrant with it.
If so, the plan is to lift and knock the quadrant down an inch. Can access through the emergency tiller hatch. Then I can access the top of the rudder stock to sand around the edges a bit.

 

[SCFoster]

Are these links any help?

Beneteau 36 rudder removal | Sailboat Owners Forums
forums.sailboatowners.com › ... › Ask A Beneteau Owner

Beneteau 361- can I remove the cutlass bearing without ...
20 Jan 2009

Coopec, thanks for the links. Have either been through them already or no new information.

This post "Beneteau 361- can I remove the cutlass bearing without ..." came close.

Replaced the bearings on my 390 and I suspect that they are the same setup. Rudder removal fairly simple. remove steering cables - you'll need two spanners or a spanner and one pair of molegrips to hold the cable from rotating. Remove autopilot steering ram if fitted to quadrant. Undo quadrant - 4 bolts, split the quadrant and remove. There is an ali collar with a pin through the shaft that stops the rudder falling out by bearing on the top bearing upper surface. Prop the bottom of the rudder to stop it hitting the hard. Remove pin and collar. Rudder is now free to drop out so lower it to the hard.

There does not appear to be any way to 'split' the quadrant as mentioned for the 390 quoted above. Triple checked to see there is no split in the top of the quadrant.

 

[Beneteau381]

Have a 2001 Beneteau 361 with heavy steering.
Now that it's on the hard for the winter, decided to tackle removing the rudder.
Dug the required hole under the rudder, disconnected the autopilot arm, loosened the two cable tensioner bolts, removed the two bolts that run through the rudder stock.
Did not see a split in the rudder quadrant, where a bolt would be tightened to pinch the rudder stock. So, I should be good with hardware removal.

Rotated the rudder back and forth and rocked it. Was able to drop the rudder a good 1.25", then it stopped. Installed the emergency tiller and tapped on the top of it, yielding about another 1/4" drop.

Now the top of the rudder shaft is about 1/8" above the rudder quadrant. I don't want to go bashing on the emergency tiller, if there's something I'm missing.

Anyone have experience dropping the rudder? Thoughts?

It looks like you have alloy crud on the shaft, it wont go through the bearing, so the bearing is coming out, it shouldnt, that needs gluing back before when you re assemble. So jack up, clean the crud off etc etc

 

[SCFoster]

It looks like you have alloy crud on the shaft, it wont go through the bearing, so the bearing is coming out, it shouldnt, that needs gluing back before when you re assemble. Si jack up clean the crud off etc etc

Want to understand your comment. There are three potential items in play. There is the lower bushing, the upper bushing and the press fit of the upper rudder stock (stem or shaft) in the quadrant.

Note there are no bearings in this assembly, just two bushings and the lower metal sleeve. That sleeve can come loose

There is no resistance to turn the rudder at this point, so I doubt it's the upper or lower bushing causing the resistance to dropping the rudder.

I'm thinking it's the upper rudder stock that is 'stuck' in the quadrant. Probably mushroomed out a bit. The plan is to jack the rudder back up, tap the quadrant back down to expose 1" of the upper rudder stock, sand it a bit, put some silicone on it and retry.

BTW, thanks for all of the replies/suggestions.

 

[cmedsailor]

It sounds strange that you cannot split the quadrant. So the rudder tube passes through it? I had a 2002 Beneteau Oceanis 361 in the past and I also drop the rudder in 2010. Like yours there was a pin through that collar right on top of that “construction” where the tube is and a second pin that was only vissible after splitting the quadrant. It’s been a long time but from memory your quadrant looks indeed different.

 

[cmedsailor]

Another mystery; why is the rudder shaft black? The rudder shaft of the B361 is made of fibreglass!

 

[SCFoster]

It sounds strange that you cannot split the quadrant. So the rudder tube passes through it? I had a 2002 Beneteau Oceanis 361 in the past and I also drop the rudder in 2010. Like yours there was a pin through that collar right on top of that “construction” where the tube is and a second pin that was only vissible after splitting the quadrant. It’s been a long time but from memory your quadrant looks indeed different.

There are two bolts, 90 degrees to each other, that were removed (purple arrows). Ran my fingers over the top of the quadrant to feel if there was any sort of a way to split the quadrant. None that I could find. The picture shows half the bottom of the quadrant, which is solid with no split. The other half is the same.

The shaft is black because it's carbon. That's according to Tides Marine, who made the assembly. Going to call them tomorrow to discuss.
Turns out the first 200 361s had a Tides Marine rudder assembly, not Beneteau.

 

[Beneteau381]

There are two bolts, 90 degrees to each other, that were removed (purple arrows). Ran my fingers over the top of the quadrant to feel if there was any sort of a way to split the quadrant. None that I could find. The picture shows half the bottom of the quadrant, which is solid with no split. The other half is the same.

The shaft is black because it's carbon. That's according to Tides Marine, who made the assembly. Going to call them tomorrow to discuss.
Turns out the first 200 361s had a Tides Marine rudder assembly, not Beneteau.

Mine, 381, is quite clearly whitish, fibreglass. Ive seen reference to carbon fibre ones, so they would be black. Looking at some of the links posted earlier, they are quite obviously American, dont forget Anerican boats were probably built in the beneteau factories over there. If you find an American manual for them, most of their measurements are in Imperial. One of the clips I just watched of a guy pulling out a "copper" bearing, sigh! Mind you he sounded like a colonial! They are made of a copper, zinc composite material and that one is probably de zincified.

 

[cmedsailor]

What puzzles me is if while dropping the rudder, the rudder shaft slides through the quadrant (since it cannot split) how will that welded area fit through the quadrant?

 

[greeny]

What puzzles me is if while dropping the rudder, the rudder shaft slides through the quadrant (since it cannot split) how will that welded area fit through the quadrant?

View attachment 103522

Pretty sure that what you're looking at is the emergency tiller assembly which is in place in the top of the shaft in this photograph.

 

[SCFoster]

Mine, 381, is quite clearly whitish, fibreglass. Ive seen reference to carbon fibre ones, so they would be black. Looking at some of the links posted earlier, they are quite obviously American, dont forget Anerican boats were probably built in the beneteau factories over there. If you find an American manual for them, most of their measurements are in Imperial. One of the clips I just watched of a guy pulling out a "copper" bearing, sigh! Mind you he sounded like a colonial! They are made of a copper, zinc composite material and that one is probably de zincified.

Yes this boat was made in the USA. The folks at Tides Marine in Florida have been responsive, asking for pictures so they can assist. The manual is both in 'Standard' and metric.
This boat is new to me (June purchase) so I'm going over everything and servicing/replacing a LOT of stuff. The boat was maintained but I'd rather replace/service now, so I know the age of the items or when it was last serviced.
The steering was normal when I got the boat in June. It had been on the hard for months. Then about 3 weeks later, the steering became very stiff. Checked the usual rudder lock, autopilot ram, chain/cable linkage with no success. After reading about the issue online, emptied the rear water tank, all the lockers and moved as much as possible to the bow, to lift the stern. 3 weeks later, the steering was light again.
With the boat on the hard to remove the bottom antifouling and check the hull for any prior damage/repairs (none found), dropping the rudder to inspect the bushings and lower outer ring was on the to-do list.

 

[SCFoster]

What puzzles me is if while dropping the rudder, the rudder shaft slides through the quadrant (since it cannot split) how will that welded area fit through the quadrant?

View attachment 103522

As greeny pointed out, that's the emergency tiller bar that is inserted from access hatch on deck.
Here is the picture which is included in the original post.

 

[SCFoster]

Was able to remove the rudder. Per greeny's suggestion, put a jack under the rudder and lifted it slowly back up. Was definitely the rudder quadrant that was stuck to the rudder post.
Tapped on the top of the rudder quadrant to lower it on the rudder post, exposing the top of the shaft.
Took some sandpaper to it, hoping to smooth it out a bit, then applied a liberal amount of silicone lubricant.
Lowered the jack, inserted the metal emergency tiller on top of the rudder shaft then pounded on top with a mallet.
Dropped pretty quickly and 'stuck' in the same location, with about 3mm (1/8") of the rudder shaft sticking up above the quadrant.
Said a silent prayer then gave the top of the shaft some good bashes and it dropped below the surface of the quadrant. Now I knew it was just a matter of tapping it out. Another couple minutes of light tapping and it dropped all the way.
Thankfully, the hole I had dug was barely deep enough. Was surprised at lightness of the rudder assembly. The carbon fiber definitely cut the weight of the shaft in half.

This assembly is definitely different than post hull #200 361's. There is no split ring in the rudder tube. It's a solid bearing surface. I can see why Beneteau cut costs. This must have cost some $$$.
Both rudder bushings have light debris stuck to them. Not bad for 20 years but I can see how the steering could stiffen as whatever is stuck to the bushings expanded by absorbing water. Also antifouling paint had been jammed up inside the lower bushing surface.

Thanks again everyone for the suggestions.

 

[SCFoster]

For hull #'s from 1 through 259, the rudder assembly is NOT produced by Beneteau. They sourced it from Tides Marine.
So, the pictures and parts on the spareparts.beneteau.com will be of no use to you.
Here is the picture of the assembly on that site.
Item 3 (Delrin spacer) is not there. Item 5 (split ring insert into stand tube) is not used. Nor is there item 9 (delrin bushing).

Instead, the stand tube has a UHMW plastic sleeve.
There are upper and lower bushings made of carbon fiber and fiberglass. Again, no lower delrin spacer.

Here is the reason for the stiff steering. The prior owner had antifouling sprayed on a regular basis. Whomever did it, didn't mask off the tube, so antifouling worked its way up onto the lower bushing.