bellows change out and universal joint questions DP-G

spannerman said:
I have followed this thread with interest reading all of the different opinions. Regardless of language you will find manufactures usually specify either a time/hours or hours/condition interval. Thats why we engineers inspect components at every service to make sure nothing untoward has happened since the last service. I know that you can pull back the bellows on a Volvo drive after 1yr and find water in there, and all of the 5 workshops I have worked in during the past 23 yrs replaced Vovo bellows at 2 yrs max. Mercruiser bellows at 5 yrs as they are made of much thicker rubber than VP bellows, but the drive comes off at every service to inspect the bellows. The point I have always stressed with customers is that a bellows change is relatively cheap compared to the bill for damaged shafts, bearings, or drive, so in reality its cheap insurance. Overall I have found water in 25% of VP bellows over the years and around 15% of Mercruisers. And water in the oil on 30-40% of VP drives and less than 10% of Mercruiser drives. Thats just my personal experience over the years, I’d be interested to hear Volvopauls findings.
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Hi SM , I’d agree with all your post , prevention is better than cure.

I don’t work on as many Mercs as you , volvos with water in the drive is a weekly occurrence which I’d say 99% is down to design in comparison to the merc because the merc has a positive oil feed through a header tank to apply a feed to the drive constantly, the Volvo doesn’t , that my theory why so few merc legs get water in them compared to VP.

I’ve seen 6 legs alone this week , 4 DPH and 2 DPE all require seals and cleaning out .

At the end of the day who would design something , stick it in salt water and expect it to last , unless of course it’s a fish.
 
Thanks so far for the responses.
So without going off topic too much
When I upgrade to a different boat sometime in the future - would shafts be better in terms of servicing as opposed to the drive leg?
And is there much in the way of servicing a ips (pod) type system.
All in terms of servicing and costs?

Jon
 
jon and michie said:
Thanks so far for the responses.
So without going off topic too much
When I upgrade to a different boat sometime in the future - would shafts be better in terms of servicing as opposed to the drive leg?
And is there much in the way of servicing a ips (pod) type system.
All in terms of servicing and costs?

Jon
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OMG recon you should ask which anchor to change to whilst you are at it :)
 
Right ok.
My question was more aimed at the servicing and costs involved i.e every 2 years for bellows and the best part of 1k to have them changed out by volvo vs shaft maintenance or ips pods.
Not on how sailing and performance
 
jon and michie said:
Right ok.
My question was more aimed at the servicing and costs involved i.e every 2 years for bellows and the best part of 1k to have them changed out by volvo vs shaft maintenance or ips pods.
Not on how sailing and performance
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Personally if i was concerned about the cost of servicing a couple of outdrives then I wouldn’t buy a boat no matter what kind of propulsion is fitted.
 
jon and michie said:
Thanks so far for the responses.
So without going off topic too much
When I upgrade to a different boat sometime in the future - would shafts be better in terms of servicing as opposed to the drive leg?
And is there much in the way of servicing a ips (pod) type system.
All in terms of servicing and costs?

Jon
Click to expand...

Shafts cheaper and easier from a maintenance perspective and more reliable as there is less to go wrong.

Outdrives can cost a bit to maintain and you can get problems - simple issue of all that machinery dangling in the water. Primary benefit over shafts is better fuel efficiency but it can be argued that maintenance costs offset this.

Having had both shafts and outdrives I would probably prefer shafts but can live with drives - type of boat is often the determining factor. Our last boat was a 41 footer with shafts but having downsized to a 34 foot sportscruiser drives were the only option and on that size of boat accommodation is better with the engines being at the back.

IPS - I wouldn’t go there personally. Maintenance is likely to become more of an issue as they get older and they are expensive and fairly complex bits of kit. Have to say I have never had a boat with them so I am basing this on what I have read and heard so others may differ.
 
volvopaul said:
Hi SM , I’d agree with all your post , prevention is better than cure.

I don’t work on as many Mercs as you , volvos with water in the drive is a weekly occurrence which I’d say 99% is down to design in comparison to the merc because the merc has a positive oil feed through a header tank to apply a feed to the drive constantly, the Volvo doesn’t , that my theory why so few merc legs get water in them compared to VP.

I’ve seen 6 legs alone this week , 4 DPH and 2 DPE all require seals and cleaning out .

At the end of the day who would design something , stick it in salt water and expect it to last , unless of course it’s a fish.
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Interesting you have found the same so its just the way it is with drives, I have only run Mercruiser myself and haven’t had any problems so far. I definitely prefer the positive pressure system that it uses as it keeps the seawater out. Volvo actually sell a similar kit which connects a flexible hose from an oil tank to the upper plug on the older drives but I have only ever seen one fitted on a boat. The majority of times I had a twin engine boat in for service you could safely bet that one drive would have water in it so the failure rate is approaching 50%; not helped by the fact that VP have done away with the metal shields that sat over the shaft seals and there is no protection around the seal as there is on Mercruiser, you can barely see the seal under the outer metal shield built into the seal.
 
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Thanks boat2016.
That price is for 1 drive - it doesn't bother me - but I'm more of a hands on person in this case the boat isnt quite just down the road from me and at the moment time is an issue
 
Thanks greg2 - a good opinion as you have had shafts and drives.
We're thinking of going up to around 43ft in about 3 years.
Jon
 
Shafts have a P bracket and in that is a cutlass bearing .At. The hull end where the shaft enters the hull they have a shaft seal .
Obviously the shaft is straight so the engine inside the boat needs to be essentially perfectly aligned .
The P bracket and shaft seals are generally designed from the offset to be submerged so there maintenance requirements are tiny annually .
in the 4 years about to a 5 th annual service of my 2nd mobo , those components above have cost zero .

Generally they don,t get a catastrophic fail , the cutlass just wears and play increases - you decide when to replace , cost a few hundred € may last 10/15 years ?
Same with the shaft seal as it wears it just drips a bit that’s all , or should do if it’s one of the better designs

Almost fit n forget compared to outdrives .

As I said earlier on my 1 st mobo was like yours ,but a twin KAD 300 DPG and for me not DIY able .So I spent literally €1000 ,s each year and the bellows job was a complete leg off and strip down + a few odd small parts inc the odd UJ buried in the several thousand € bill .

IPS is the same principle as outdrives in terms of dangling very expensive gears in the sea protected by perishable seals / shims / skirts etc .
The difference is there’s an extra nought on the repair bills you are talking 10s of thousands .Plus a shed load of electrotwackery inside the boat to control it all which as it ages = another revenue stream for VP and headache + bills for the owner .

It’s just fundamentally wrong imho for a private leisure boater to risk .Ok for a commercial boat where the maintenance costs of pods ( required for geostationary work ) can be passed on to the clients .


So why are they popular nowadays?

If you scroll back to the 1960 ,s VP marketed the outdrive as a a smart 4 stroke alternative to the basic 2 stroke unreliable outboards .
In areas with archipelagos like Scandinavia whereby folks had weekend and holiday homes a reliable boat is essential.N America was at the time a mirror market .
Initially the boats were dry stored ashore and definitely in the winter ( out of season ) .
So the engineers knew the risk of dangling the gears in the water ,but were at that time prepared to take it compared with the alternative .The owners where happy too with inboard more reliable 4 T engines .

At the end of the 60 ,s and early 70 ,s up popped a huge expansion of leisure boats , Sunseeker being just one , Marine projects ( Princess ) another , Fairline followed shortly + many others .
VP , the Penta bit is 5 directors from the main Volvo automotive Co who split off to peruse the outdrive could not believe there luck , orders and subsequent modal development flooded in ( no pun intended) they rode the 70 ,s explosion of leisure boating .
The boat builders built bigger boats and VP made more powerful set ups , hand in hand leisure boating expanded .
From a manufacturing POV outdrives are easy to instal , no shaft alignment issues, less inventory quicker time wise and arguably less skill requirements, along with the rearward transom packaging a boat builders dream .
As we went through the 80,s the packaging allowed a rear cabin as boat L increased .
By the turn of the century the Hp demanded by the builders to push 40 + ftrs required a radical rethink .Just upscaling the OD to meet the torque of say a 7/12 L diesel would weigh for too much at the transom,so they turned it around and upscale it , placed it a bit more central for boat balance and coincidentally added the shed load of IT for manoeuvrability and renamed them IPS and went about aggressively marketing them into 40/50 ftrs opening up a whole new income stream .
A bit of kidology with the joystick was a big marketing plus for newbies which VP have truly milked along with the symbiotic relationship with the builders facilitating the owners mid cabin .Owners mid cabins sells new boats .
Builders provide a warm 3 year Warranty blanket for IPS newbies to clinch the deal .
But the connection between the early alternative to a 2T outboard and today’s IPS 1200 has not changed = expensive gears dangled in water , with exactly same inevitable consequences from an engineering POV .

As the business has matured I sometimes wonder if the heads of dept have a sort of drunken bet at the Xmas party .
The after sales guy betting the engine sales guy that his dept will generate more revenue for the Co .

Shaft equivalent like for like will burn more fuel there’s no doubt about that .But the maintenance if any is predicable and so small un worry able it puts you in control of your boating budget barring accidents ( same difference for both types) You just buy fuel that’s it as much as you are happy burning .

Technically my stern gear Is insured anyhow from a repair from a clout , but my outdrives were not against water ingress .

Imho there’s plenty of shaft drive eq about you just have to look away from the Brit production which are well ingrained into the U.K. boaty psyche.
 
Many thanks portofino for your well written reply there.
Puts things in a good perspective especially as you have had the same engine as mine.
Thanks again
Jon
 
To also put things into perspective when it comes to servicing costs, you can pay a lot more to keep a Ferrari on the road with following the dealer service requirements than you would a 50ft boat with IPS, you never really get the same resentment from supercar owners when seeing how much the dealer is ripping them off for keeping their service book up to date.
 
I have the older single prop 290 volvo sterndrives and I replace the bellows etc every 2 years. In true PBO style I have made a stand out of 4 x2 wood and fitted heavy duty casters to minimise the heavy lifting. I take them home and over the winter I thoroughly inspect, clean, test and paint I also pressure and vacuum test each drive. Out of interest, this year I found slightly milky oil in one of the drives which turned out to be the gear selector seal. The other drive had a broken reverse latch spring. Cost wise fairly minimal... However... they are heavy and awkward, I am only a 10 stone weakling and now retired, I don't know how long my body can stand the lifting. The problem is there is not much "drive" choice in 20 knot plus twin engined boats around 30 foot!!
 
Greg2 said:
Shafts cheaper and easier from a maintenance perspective and more reliable as there is less to go wrong.

Outdrives can cost a bit to maintain and you can get problems - simple issue of all that machinery dangling in the water. Primary benefit over shafts is better fuel efficiency but it can be argued that maintenance costs offset this.

Having had both shafts and outdrives I would probably prefer shafts but can live with drives - type of boat is often the determining factor. Our last boat was a 41 footer with shafts but having downsized to a 34 foot sportscruiser drives were the only option and on that size of boat accommodation is better with the engines being at the back.

IPS - I wouldn’t go there personally. Maintenance is likely to become more of an issue as they get older and they are expensive and fairly complex bits of kit. Have to say I have never had a boat with them so I am basing this on what I have read and heard so others may differ.
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Also, if you hit a sandbank at 25knots in an outdrive boat, if you're lucky the drives will flip up and cause minimal damage. If you hit the same sandbank with a shaftdrive boat and it pulls a shaft out you will sink.
 
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