Beam to Broad Reach, weather helm

[corbu]

Guys, could I have your thoughts on the best way to bear away from a beam to a broad reach in windy conditions?

I typically have a good handle on balancing the sails and achieving a few degrees of weather helm on the tiller from close hauled to almost beam reach by easing out the main and dropping down the traveller. (Helped by a young crew who strictly enforce a twenties plenty heeling rule on their skipper.) However, one sticking point I sometimes have is making the transition from a beam reach to downwind. Following letting out the main to almost the shrouds I am confused as to whether I should also ease out the foresail or to it keep trimmed on to smooth the transition to wind abaft the beam. This typically happens when I am turning a corner into say Brodick bay and I really don't want to be rounding up toward the rocky lee shore. Also happens when well reefed in and not generally over powered. All sweetness and light when I get through this point and no rounding up on a broad reach.

Beyond the correct action for the foresail, anything else that could help, dumping the vang to further de-power the main?

Boat is a 28 foot cobra 850.

Thanks.

 

[William_H]

It sounds like your crew like mine tend to demand the boat be driven pretty hard for the wind strength. The turn down wind if doe fairly sharply will with centrifugal force tend to cause the weight of the mast and sails to heel the boat even more. I would say dump the pressure off the main sail and jib to a fair degree before the turn so reducing heeling on the beam reach and setting the sails for the new down wind leg. Ohterwise all i can suggest is that you prepare yourself for the weather helm that I believe mostly comes from the heeling rather than sail ballance. (different boats can be different here)
In my little boat I always do it myself (and teach others) to take them selves over to the lee side before a gybe so that they are prepared early to manage the weather helm in a strong wind gybe. ie ready to pull the tiller. Especially with spin up the little blighter can wash the windows or even dip the mast ina flash if helmsman is not ready. olewill

 

[Bobc]

Try knocking the kicker off a bit. You'll find that helps a lot.

 

[lpdsn]

If you have a large overlapping genny that can induce weather helm even if you've eased the main.

Dumping the kicker is more of an emergency measure. You'll see the effect at the head of the main.

 

[Iliade]

I have to ease the foresail as it actually generates weather helm on its own, without the main even hoisted...

(must type quicker.)

 

[Bobc]

If you have a large overlapping genny that can induce weather helm even if you've eased the main.

Dumping the kicker is more of an emergency measure. You'll see the effect at the head of the main.

It's not an emergency measure, it's a sail control. You should ease the kicker during a bear-away in almost all conditions otherwise you stall the rig, push the nose down and induc weather helm.

 

[Daydream believer]

. The turn down wind if doe fairly sharply will with centrifugal force tend to cause the weight of the mast and sails to heel the boat even more. l

Surely turning down wind sharply will mean the centrifugal forces from the rig will want to roll the mast to windward not to leeward thus healing less, not more

That ise a panic measure when sailing fast in a dinghy & a gust suddenly hits the boat. Luffing throws the rig to leeward making the capsize more likely. Bearing sharply downwind does fill the sail but there is an initial force pushing the boat upright for a second giving the crew a chance to get more weight over the side. After that it is back to survival mode !!!!

I would also tend to disagree somewhat with the combined easing of the vang during the manouver that some suggest. Whilst bearing off there is a lot of weight in the mainsail. if the vang is not around a winch when released from cleat or stopper it may run out too quick. If the upper leech is allowed to go forward of the mast it has the effect of pushing the mast to windward. If that is done in a controlled way then Ok but when on the run it will exagerate the roll of the boat to windward. This may cause the helmsman to let the boat go too far & crash gybe. Also if the vang then has to be re tightened it puts a great strain on it ( possibly more than if just left alone)
I would bear off, then assess how to adjust vang, backstay etc

I would also query mast rake. On my boat, when having the rigger fit new rigging I asked him to shorten the non adjustable forstay which moved the tip of the mast 400 mm further forward. This improved helm balance which actually helped windward performance - probably as I was thus using less rudder

 

[Bobc]

What a load of tosh.

It's the pressure in the back of the main (COE), combined with the CLR being moved aft by the boat heeling that loads up the rudder. Easing the kicker (not just letting it fly) releases the pressure in the top and back of the main, reducing the load on the helm and helping you to bear away.

Try just bearing away quickly in a performance dinghy in a gust, and you'll end-up with the boat standing on its nose. You MUST ease the kicker BEFORE the bear-away.

 

[lw395]

What a load of tosh.

It's the pressure in the back of the main (COE), combined with the CLR being moved aft by the boat heeling that loads up the rudder. Easing the kicker (not just letting it fly) releases the pressure in the top and back of the main, reducing the load on the helm and helping you to bear away.

Try just bearing away quickly in a performance dinghy in a gust, and you'll end-up with the boat standing on its nose. You MUST ease the kicker BEFORE the bear-away.

A performance dinghy is a different animal.
The yacht kicker is probably not 'on' in any way a dinghy sailor would recognise in the first place.
I would think easing the genoa sheet so that the boat comes more upright and is not trying to round up might help?


Or get the kite up...

 

[Bobc]

But the rules of physics still apply the same.

It's like when you start to get over-pressed in a gust and the boat starts screwing-up to wind. Dump a bit of kicker and the pressure comes off instantly.

Sure you need to ease the genoa too, but you must get the pressure out of the main.

 

[Iain C]

Threads like this remind me why everyone should sail fast dinghies for a while to understand what forces are at work both above and below the water!

 

[Daydream believer]

What a load of tosh.

.

So you are saying that :-
Surely turning down wind sharply will mean the centrifugal forces from the rig will want to roll the mast to windward not to leeward thus healing less, not more
is incorrect------ Really !!!!!

You are further saying that :-
That is a panic measure when sailing fast in a dinghy & a gust suddenly hits the boat. Luffing throws the rig to leeward making the capsize more likely. Bearing sharply downwind does fill the sail but there is an initial force pushing the boat upright for a second giving the crew a chance to get more weight over the side. After that it is back to survival mode !!!!
is wrong---- odd, because I have been dinghy sailing since early teens & I was taught that ( incorrectly it seems) at sailing school. I still race a Phantom occasionally at 68yrs

you are saying that
"If the upper leech is allowed to go forward of the mast it has the effect of pushing the mast to windward. If that is done in a controlled way then Ok but when on the run it will exagerate the roll of the boat to windward. This may cause the helmsman to let the boat go too far & crash gybe."

is incorrect & the leech, if allowed to go forward of the mast will not tend to induce roll to windward. I suggest you go out one day & try it

as for the vang the Op may not be experienced ( apologies if he is)& in a cruising situation the crew ( poss also inexperienced) will not accidentally let the vang go with a bang allowing the boom to ride up so should not be stabilised on a winch first.
So you do not think that is a possibility

Finally I said
" mast rake. On my boat, when having the rigger fit new rigging I asked him to shorten the non adjustable forstay which moved the tip of the mast 400 mm further forward. This improved helm balance which actually helped windward performance - probably as I was thus using less rudder"

you are suggesting "moving mast forward a bit Does not help to move the centre of effort of the sail forward in relation to the rest of the boat"

I am sorry my friend but I tend to think you may not be entirely correct in your assessment . I am sure we could have a great discussion at the bar with a few pints on the table

 

[HenryEDM]

Here's a great example of the kicker being used to depower the main and reduce heel. Watch as the boat starts being overpowered after the gybe and the kicker goes off then as the boat comes upright again the kicker goes on hard and the boat takes off.

http://youtu.be/mYKTXsRLY9Y

 

[lw395]

But the rules of physics still apply the same.

It's like when you start to get over-pressed in a gust and the boat starts screwing-up to wind. Dump a bit of kicker and the pressure comes off instantly.

Sure you need to ease the genoa too, but you must get the pressure out of the main.

The OP seemed to imply the main was well eased 'to the shrouds'.
If the genoa is not eased, it will be stalling and backwinding the main.
Easing the genoa will give less heel and more drive as the boat turns.

A boat like a Cobra probably has little kicker applied in the first place, but yes it should be eased enough to allow some twist when bearing off.
Eased but not 'dumped'.

Another point which translates from dinghies is it often helps to get the boat more level before turning a corner.
Easing and steering together progressively works better than turning then re-setting the sails.

 

[lw395]

.....you are suggesting "moving mast forward a bit Does not help to move the centre of effort of the sail forward in relation to the rest of the boat"

I am sorry my friend but I tend to think you may not be entirely correct in your assessment . I am sure we could have a great discussion at the bar with a few pints on the table

Is easing the backstay to let the mast forward relevant to this boat?

 

[corbu]

Is easing the backstay to let the mast forward relevant to this boat?

No quick adjustment of backstay possible. I have been easing genoa as turning but just surprised at how much force on tiller required sometimes. Out in windyish weather on Saturday, eased Genoa (furled to 100%), had to really pull on tiller to go to broad reach and was wondering if I should have left Genoa trimmed on.

Next time I'll try easing kicker, see if it helps. Thanks.

 

[Spirit of Glenans]

Guys, could I have your thoughts on the best way to bear away from a beam to a broad reach in windy conditions?

I typically have a good handle on balancing the sails and achieving a few degrees of weather helm on the tiller from close hauled to almost beam reach by easing out the main and dropping down the traveller. (Helped by a young crew who strictly enforce a twenties plenty heeling rule on their skipper.) However, one sticking point I sometimes have is making the transition from a beam reach to downwind. Following letting out the main to almost the shrouds I am confused as to whether I should also ease out the foresail or to it keep trimmed on to smooth the transition to wind abaft the beam. This typically happens when I am turning a corner into say Brodick bay and I really don't want to be rounding up toward the rocky lee shore. Also happens when well reefed in and not generally over powered. All sweetness and light when I get through this point and no rounding up on a broad reach.

Beyond the correct action for the foresail, anything else that could help, dumping the vang to further de-power the main?

Boat is a 28 foot cobra 850.

Thanks.

I'm not sure I really understand the problem. To my mind, bearing away from a Broad Reach to a Run is normally done by simply steering further downwind in a smooth manner, while easing both sails simultaneously to suitable trim for the new POS i.e. fully out. Regarding the kicker; I was taught that it is not required when sailing close to the wind, but as one bears away, the downward force of the mainsheet on the boom decreases as the sheet is eased, to the point where the kicker needs to be hardened up to prevent the boom rising. So the further downwind you sail, the more kicker tension you will need. As you bear away to a Run, the genoa will(should) be blanketed by the main to the point where it is drawing no wind whatsoever.
I used to have a UFO 27 which had, I believe, a similar sail plan to the Cobra 850. The genoa was enormous, to the point where the mainsail was almost redundant, and unless it was used with at least a roll or two on the furler and proper attention paid to trim, it did, initially, provide some very lively heeling and luffing-up episodes.
If your Genny is of the large, overlapping type I would ensure that your crew ease it progressively, and simultaneously with the main,as you bear away
You mention a fear of being luffed up onto a lee shore - that's just not possible

 

[johnalison]

I think the problem is not about how the OP should normally bear off but how to manage when the boat is already hard-pressed, when loss of control is a possibility. A 28' boat is likely to quite a handful in these conditions and a short-handed crew may struggle to make the required adjustments in time. In the past, most cruising sailors would have shortened sail in advance of this sort of situation but modern boats and sail handling aids means that many of us carry full sail in near-gale conditions, if not as much as the madmen in racing craft.

I found HarryEDM's video very enlightening, thanks.

 

[Javelin]

Reduce heel is the simple solution.
First dump the traveler to leeward, ease the kicker and main.
Ease the genoa.

If you're driving well on a reach you'll be heeled and you'll be driving the bow down.
To bear off you have to fight both of these factors.
So timing is also relevant on when to bear off.
Essentially when the bow lifts and when you're heeling less.
Easing sails will reduce the heeling, timing the wave will do the rest.

 

[corbu]

Reduce heel is the simple solution.
First dump the traveler to leeward, ease the kicker and main.
Ease the genoa.

If you're driving well on a reach you'll be heeled and you'll be driving the bow down.
To bear off you have to fight both of these factors.
So timing is also relevant on when to bear off.
Essentially when the bow lifts and when you're heeling less.
Easing sails will reduce the heeling, timing the wave will do the rest.

Could you say a bit more about timing and letting the bow come up?

I tend to sail quite upright, reefed early, traveller down, as my kids (typical crew) all dinghy sailors, don't like heeling too much! My question was driven by the slight sense of loss of control sometimes expierienced coming around headlands and feeling as if I am being sucked in to the shore as I am trying to bear away from a beam reach. Never felt really dangerous, just enough to raise my heart rate a little and make me think I need to get a better handle on this! (On reflection, not Lee shores just feeling like it).