Bavaria lost keel again

[maby]

Exactly. That was one of the deciding factors when we bought ours. Two surveyors said the same thing and one had done the factory tour on behalf of a client. 12 years down the line and still have the same view (give or take a couple of little niggles).

The Bav we tried was, I think, a 2005 model and it really was very lightly built. We were concerned when we saw the lift-out pictures from the survey at how little metal there was hanging underneath - we had noted on the sea trial that you seemed to have to reef very early and she just could not carry as much canvas as we would have expected.

 

[Tranona]

The common stainless steels are prone to crevice corrosion. They have been described as a very poor ( although common) choice of material for keel bolts. It always seems a pity when many boat problems could be solved if buyers were prepared to pay few dollars more.

They are only "poor" if they get wet and are then deprived of oxygen - does not normally happen in a well sealed keel bolted to a GRP structure..

The "story" that it is not good for keel bolts is a hangover from the days of wooden construction when keelbolts often lived in damp wood (because of lack of sealing) and waisted where they were in the wood - I have some excellent mild steel examples of waisting that I extracted from my wooden boat and replaced with well sealed stainless bolts nearly 20 years ago - still there.

Not sure why you make reference to cost as the main alternative, mild steel is substantially cheaper and bronze would not have any advantage in a cast iron keel.

Stainless steel keelbolts are not a "problem".

 

[noelex]

So the keel bolts have to get damp to decome damaged, how stupid of me to think that could ever happen

There are a lot of metals that are far more suitable than the common stainless steels such as 304 and 316.
The superaustenitic', 6%Mo alloy class of stainless steels would be a big improvement these are much more resistant to crevice corrosion. Other materials such as Monel, titanium and silicon bronze have been used. I will leave it up to the metallurgists to debate which is the best depending on the application and keel material.
These materials are more expensive, but the extra cost is very slight compared to the overall boat cost.

 

[vyv_cox]

So the keel bolts have to get damp to decome damaged, how stupid of me to think that could ever happen

Not a problem if the sealant is good. My stainless bolts have been in my cast iron keel for more than 25 years, with no problem at all. On another boat it was obvious immediately that the sealant had failed when rusty water entered the bilges during hard beats.

The big advantage of stainless keel bolts is that they can almost always be withdrawn , even if the keel has rusted. Conversely, on Moodys, who use carbon steel keel bolts, presumably to avoid galvanic effects, the bolts can rust severely and have to be machined out.

 

[Seajet]

I don't have a Bavaria, never even sailed one, but I've seen plenty ashore and afloat...

I think the 'keels fall off' bandwagon is nonsense, a lot of Ford Escorts were made and quite a few of them got driven into trees, but a tiny percentage of those built and it doesn't mean the design has an instinct to do so !

 

[wklein]

10) Excaliber-need more info

Just for the record I'm pretty sure that Excalibur was the name of the boat not the make, especially as the Excalibur has an encapsulated keel with lead shot in four separate compartments all set in resin. There was a race boat which lost theirs of no connection.

I am probably being ignorant but how do you change the keelbolts of a cast iron keel? As I understand it they are 'J' bolts cast into the keel when it was made. I can't see of any way of changing these as a matter of course without a new keel.

Of course there is corrosion on keelbolts in the bilge if it is left with water in the bilge for long periods as this will go stagnant.

I believe that occasional light groundings and drying out against a wall are all part of the job of a cruising boats keel.

 

[maby]

I don't have a Bavaria, never even sailed one, but I've seen plenty ashore and afloat...

I think the 'keels fall off' bandwagon is nonsense, ...

Yes, it is - but I think there is evidence that Bavs around the middle of the last decade were perhaps built a bit lighter that strictly made sense.

 

[VADROUILLE]

The big advantage of stainless keel bolts is that they can almost always be withdrawn , even if the keel has rusted. Conversely, on Moodys, who use carbon steel keel bolts, presumably to avoid galvanic effects, the bolts can rust severely and have to be machined out.

Correct, Moody's don't have stainless. But in all fairness if they need to be drilled out then that shows you how well the owner looks after the boat.

My moody is 20 years old and my bolts are still in good condition. If I wanted to take one out I'm sure I could with the correct tools.

I sourced all my leaks (yes Moody's do leak) and my bilges now remain dry, and hence why my keel bolts still look good. Infact, I store lots of food and drink in my bilges to keep the weight low down to the centreline. But that's besides the point.

The fact is, I have viewed lots of Moody's with nasty looking bolts, and it's all because owners can't be bothered to source the leaks and they leave it to the auto bilge pump (which never pumps all the water out).

Typical leaks being the prv valve, fridge drain, aft lockers, rudder seals, windows etc etc

So there you have it, in my opinion if there is water in the bilge then how well has the rest of the boat been looked after?

 

[wklein]

If I had a new boat with keelbolts I would be tempted to silicone a piece of fibreglass tube around each bolt. That way they would remain dry and if one was leaking (not that likely) it would easy to identify as opposed to the other sources of bilge water. I would probably never get around to it though.

 

[Tranona]

So the keel bolts have to get damp to decome damaged, how stupid of me to think that could ever happen

There are a lot of metals that are far more suitable than the common stainless steels such as 304 and 316.
The superaustenitic', 6%Mo alloy class of stainless steels would be a big improvement these are much more resistant to crevice corrosion. Other materials such as Monel, titanium and silicon bronze have been used. I will leave it up to the metallurgists to debate which is the best depending on the application and keel material.
These materials are more expensive, but the extra cost is very slight compared to the overall boat cost.

You are vastly overstating the problem. Crevice corrosion is not a problem in keel bolts, neither is it a cause of keels "falling off". Silicon bronze is commonly used on lead keels. Monel and titanium are completely unnecessary in this application - which is why they are not used.

 

[beserksail]

Correct, Moody's don't have stainless. But in all fairness if they need to be drilled out then that shows you how well the owner looks after the boat.

My moody is 20 years old and my bolts are still in good condition. If I wanted to take one out I'm sure I could with the correct tools.

I sourced all my leaks (yes Moody's do leak) and my bilges now remain dry, and hence why my keel bolts still look good. Infact, I store lots of food and drink in my bilges to keep the weight low down to the centreline. But that's besides the point.

The fact is, I have viewed lots of Moody's with nasty looking bolts, and it's all because owners can't be bothered to source the leaks and they leave it to the auto bilge pump (which never pumps all the water out).

Typical leaks being the prv valve, fridge drain, aft lockers, rudder seals, windows etc etc

So there you have it, in my opinion if there is water in the bilge then how well has the rest of the boat been looked after?

A keel bolt needs to be withdrawn or xrayed to check for condition, just looking at the bit that can be seen in the bilge does not count.

 

[VADROUILLE]

A keel bolt needs to be withdrawn or xrayed to check for condition, just looking at the bit that can be seen in the bilge does not count.

Hmmmm, ok, well you are right. But in all fairness looking at it gives you a good idea of the condition. What do you think surveyors do.......

 

[Annabell]

SV Pedra was located right next to me when they stopped in Marina Rubicon/LZ. The boat was extremly well maintained so that you could think it would be 3 or 4 years old. The couple are experienced sailors, so I can not believe that they should not have inspected the keel bolts. I believe the glasfibre failed, was weakened, much harder to find out. In their last report (26.5.12) they mention, the keel came loose, just when they had abandoned the boat the keel fall off, capsized and sank.

In the same area two days earlier a Hanse 370e sank, the skipper believed to have had whalecontact. As well a boat better to sail on the Isselmeer where it came from , "Outer Limits" his name, they knew what they did . The nearby british HR 42 "Halo" with Mike and Alexandra Bailey on board, as well my neighbours in Rubicon, came to rescue them.

Klaus, SV Annabell, HR 39 II, Las Palmas GC

 

[vyv_cox]

Hmmmm, ok, well you are right. But in all fairness looking at it gives you a good idea of the condition. What do you think surveyors do.......

I fully agree with you. I was not knocking Moodys in any way. Corrosion, of every type that we are likely to deal with, needs water to be present. Keep it out and it won't happen.

 

[Koeketiene]

I fully agree with you. I was not knocking Moodys in any way. Corrosion, of every type that we are likely to deal with, needs water to be present. Keep it out and it won't happen.

With this in mind - why not have encapsulated keels? (like boats used to have)

 

[Talulah]

With this in mind - why not have encapsulated keels? (like boats used to have)

It's much easier and ipso facto cheaper to build boats without the keel and add it later.
Think of workman working around a boat where the deck rail is at chest height.
There is also a performance issue. With bolt on keels you can have a deep thin support with a weight on the end where as an encapsulated keel is much fatter in section.
Our boat has an encapsulated keel which is less stressful but we're not going to win any races.

 

[GrahamM376]

Not a problem if the sealant is good. My stainless bolts have been in my cast iron keel for more than 25 years, with no problem at all. On another boat it was obvious immediately that the sealant had failed when rusty water entered the bilges during hard beats.

The big advantage of stainless keel bolts is that they can almost always be withdrawn , even if the keel has rusted. Conversely, on Moodys, who use carbon steel keel bolts, presumably to avoid galvanic effects, the bolts can rust severely and have to be machined out.

Westerly used stainless keel bolts and when I dropped the keels off our Centauir and Berwick (both 1970's boats) they were in perfect condition.

AS far as Moody are concerned, I've not heard of any having to have corroded bolts machined out and a search in the MOA archives doesn't bring anything up. I withdrew and changed them on our M346 because the nuts were rusty and, when trying to remove the nuts, each one drew the keel studs out without any problem. All studs were actually in perfect condition below the nuts.

 

[Koeketiene]

With this in mind - why not have encapsulated keels? (like boats used to have)

It's much easier and ipso facto cheaper to build boats without the keel and add it later.
Think of workman working around a boat where the deck rail is at chest height.
There is also a performance issue. With bolt on keels you can have a deep thin support with a weight on the end where as an encapsulated keel is much fatter in section.
Our boat has an encapsulated keel which is less stressful but we're not going to win any races.

Would it be fair to say that most boats sold these days are sold to people interested in cruising rather than racing?
I may be leading a fairly sheltered life, but I don't see many Bavarias, Beneteaus, .... out and about actively racing.
In which case, most modern boats are being less well engineered just to cut cost.
Nothing intrinsically wrong with that, we should never lose sight of this fact.

Our boat is rather older (early 80s build), but when we were looking to buy an encapsulated keel and skeg-hung rudder were 'must haves'.
People can argue improved building procedures, new materials, etc... till they are blue in the face, but I have yet to read any reports about a boat with an encapsulated keel and skeg-hung rudder losing either.

IMO, not all so-called progress is in fact an improvement. It's more about cost, sometimes at the expense of quality.

 

[Talulah]

Encapsulated keels are not immune to damage but I feel far happier with one. Partly because other people are using our boat and God knows how many times they've grounded.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/at...57-encapsulated-keel-repair-keeldamage006.jpg

http://www.sydolphindance.com/2012/03/older-hallberg-rassy-keel-and-hull.html

http://www.jordanyachts.com/archives/1545

I saw one boat where they had hit the submerged barrier outside Portsmouth at speed.
The encapsulated keel was severely damaged but the boat was still seaworthy. A bolted on keel would almost have certainly resulted in catastrophic damage.

 

[vyv_cox]

AS far as Moody are concerned, I've not heard of any having to have corroded bolts machined out and a search in the MOA archives doesn't bring anything up. I withdrew and changed them on our M346 because the nuts were rusty and, when trying to remove the nuts, each one drew the keel studs out without any problem. All studs were actually in perfect condition below the nuts.

I recall at least one on these forums, but it might be some time ago.