Bavaria Bashers Beware!

[Woodlouse]

I hope you've got £25k handy to back that up...!

I've got about £6.75, will that do?

 

[xyachtdave]

I've got about £6.75, will that do?

That will get you an older 30 footer...



Sorry - think I got my Bavaria bashing threads mixed up with the £25k show down nonsense!

 

[Rossynant]

One thing for BavBashers - not being one, but then why not?
Just remembered a story.
There was a young couple, about 30 years, with two small children. They bought Bavaria thirtysomething (33 or 37, can't recall) in Turkey and sailed for Cyprus. After few days decided to enter Paphos. Nice conditions, F3-4.
Somewhere close the boat capsized in the swell. Woman fell overboard and perished. Man managed to swam to the shore and called for rescue - one of rescuers perished at sea too. Children were in forecabin and when the boat finally washed ashore they were saved.

Putting this here as was reminded I write to much about stability, while capsize of boat is such a rare thing...

 

[photodog]

I don't know where you'll find evidence on the internet. But as an example at least three of Cornish Cruising's baviaria's have required major relaminating and strengthening around the keels after not particularly dramatic groundings. There was another one, I believe privately owned, that had it's forestay pull out from the stem.

It's a very small set of examples from many thousands of yachts built, and when you occasionally work with a surveyor you get to see some pretty interesting things breaking. But despite the thousands of boats by hundreds of manufacturers it does seem that Bavaria's have more than their fair share of issues.

I witnessed one of those CC boats being grounded... Which lead to extensive damage... I even have a picture of it.... It was on the bar opposite Trelessic house at the bottom of the Fal... The guy was in a rush to get somewere and ran it on at a good 6 knots... I doubt any boat would have survived that without substantial damage to the keel unless they had a steel Frame or a long keel...

Edit.. Don't have the picture on photobucket... But it happened just here..

And that's us on the anchor...

But to it a bit more perspective into the equation... I Own a 1999 model 31.

I don't want to jinx it so I am going to be very carefull.

I have a very minor leak in the aft cabin which comes in under the port fair lead. It has developed in the past year or so... And I am going to lift the fair lead this spring and get it sorted..

I had to replace the fridge compressor 4 years ago.

The shower head could do with replacing as its looking a bit tatty.

The upholstery is IMO now looking a bit not as nice as I would like it to be.

I have replaced the original plastic air vent n the fore deck with a stainless one.

One of the reefs in the seldon boom needs re reeving....

Errrr... That's it.

No other failures or issues of any sort on a 13 year old boat after 8 seasons.

She is fun, quick in the right conditions... Easy to manage myself... Comfortable... CE Cat a, German Lloyds certified.

I wouldn't want to be offshore in a real blow... But the AVS is 138'..... So very safe.

So, I don't recognise all this talk about how they have more issues than other boats.

We have also chartered a lot... And the worst we had was a Élan 333 which was a great great boat to sail... But had a long list of defects... (and this was a private charter in Scotland... So not a lot of charter use..)

I count myself lucky... But I also think its down to the essentially simple conventional build of the boats... And the high quality of the fittings..

 

[Baggywrinkle]

One thing for BavBashers - not being one, but then why not?
Just remembered a story.
There was a young couple, about 30 years, with two small children. They bought Bavaria thirtysomething (33 or 37, can't recall) in Turkey and sailed for Cyprus. After few days decided to enter Paphos. Nice conditions, F3-4.
Somewhere close the boat capsized in the swell. Woman fell overboard and perished. Man managed to swam to the shore and called for rescue - one of rescuers perished at sea too. Children were in forecabin and when the boat finally washed ashore they were saved.

Putting this here as was reminded I write to much about stability, while capsize of boat is such a rare thing...

You mean this ....

http://m.cyprus-mail.com/node/70680

Doesn't sound like nice conditions, and it was on approach to Pathos harbour. The owner swam ashore, the wife was lost at sea, one of the police drowned, the kids who remained on board survived. Tragic, but probably down to operator error more than boat failure.

 

[Rossynant]

But the AVS is 138'..... So very safe.

Wouldn't be allowed to build in Poland, required minimum is 140. Recommended 160...

Baggywrinkle - yes, I believe this is the story.
As I heard, the skipper "was not suspecting such difficult conditions in the harbour" and "this was freak wave". Not knowing much more than I heard, but there is a kind of bar or shallow there, and with substantial swell at sea breakers can develop, while for those on open sea it's not obvious.

I just remembered the story seeing a video of 'Cedar' in Svaneke. http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?347631-Big-seas
Another example of 'unsuspecting' - guys went into a harbour which was closed because of swell, and had been tremendously lucky since this harbour has a gate, usually closed when swell is coming in. What would happen if this was closed I don't want to imagine.
Well, such things happen sometime, close to shallow lee shore; here at least as all our shore is a beach and a lee...

P.S Can someone confirm (for my curiosity) is this a Bavaria (on picture in link)?

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Wouldn't be allowed to build in Poland, required minimum is 140. Recommended 160...

Baggywrinkle - yes, I believe this is the story.
As I heard, the skipper "was not suspecting such difficult conditions in the harbour" and "this was freak wave". Not knowing much more than I heard, but there is a kind of bar or shallow there, and with substantial swell at sea breakers can develop, while for those on open sea it's not obvious.

I just remembered the story seeing a video of 'Cedar' in Svaneke. http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?347631-Big-seas
Another example of 'unsuspecting' - guys went into a harbour which was closed because of swell, and had been tremendously lucky since this harbour has a gate, usually closed when swell is coming in. What would happen if this was closed I don't want to imagine.
Well, such things happen sometime, close to shallow lee shore; here at least as all our shore is a beach and a lee...

P.S Can someone confirm (for my curiosity) is this a Bavaria (on picture in link)?

It is a Bavaria.

But how do Flabria get away with building the 33 then ...

http://www.flabria.fi/wp-content/uploads/Stability_Datasheet_flabria-33.pdf

 

[Rossynant]

Yes, good point... Actually above mentioned Bavaria with 138 AVS seems to be quite good in comparison with some others on the market. Just personally I'd not use the expression "very safe".

Well, as for stability - CE norm (I just made a short glance, as not current in this, but so it seems) requires 120 deg AVs minus some factor for length. Tranona said some boats may result with not much more than 100 deg AVS from this calcullations. Christ...

Polish rule is not mandatory, but still applies to bigger boats and commercial ones. At least a boat I last sailed is required to comply, and surveyed annually for strength, equipment and such. What and how the rulings are used at present I'm not sure, not interested really - I just use them as handy reference, as there are tables for bolt sizes, loads on fittings or rig strengths required and so on. Laws have changed here lately and another change is about to come.

Anyway you may buy any boat in Poland - as you wish - to any standard. A lot is made for well known brands, as they design and specify. Only rule mandatory is CE. And should someone want - even this is not necessary, just wouldn't be allowed to sell in EU.

I cited the ruling as this was a standard on stability, I believe it's required of boats used for chartering here (not sure if still) and not long ago it wouldn't be possible to built boat less stable and deem it suitable "for high sea" ("region I - unlimited"); but naturally for "region II" which means 'sheltered sea waters' requirement is 120 deg. So if you want less stable boat - no problem

edit.
But there is another thing (as for Flabria in link) - ORC calculation is just a calculation. They do not measure actual stability of the boat. What it really is? well, my personal approach to stability measurement is old fashion: inclining experiment. Lay her down and measure. Couple years ago, when asked to make a sailing course - took the boat, couple of students and heave on the hallyards it was Yup, came back up... but nice to be sure.

 

[photodog]

Yes, good point... Actually above mentioned Bavaria with 138 AVS seems to be quite good in comparison with some others on the market. Just personally I'd not use the expression "very safe".

Well, as for stability - CE norm (I just made a short glance, as not current in this, but so it seems) requires 120 deg AVs minus some factor for length. Tranona said some boats may result with not much more than 100 deg AVS from this calcullations. Christ...

Polish rule is not mandatory, but still applies to bigger boats and commercial ones. At least a boat I last sailed is required to comply, and surveyed annually for strength, equipment and such. What and how the rulings are used at present I'm not sure, not interested really - I just use them as handy reference, as there are tables for bolt sizes, loads on fittings or rig strengths required and so on. Laws have changed here lately and another change is about to come.

Anyway you may buy any boat in Poland - as you wish - to any standard. A lot is made for well known brands, as they design and specify. Only rule mandatory is CE. And should someone want - even this is not necessary, just wouldn't be allowed to sell in EU.

I cited the ruling as this was a standard on stability, I believe it's required of boats used for chartering here (not sure if still) and not long ago it wouldn't be possible to built boat less stable and deem it suitable "for high sea" ("region I - unlimited"); but naturally for "region II" which means 'sheltered sea waters' requirement is 120 deg. So if you want less stable boat - no problem

edit.
But there is another thing (as for Flabria in link) - ORC calculation is just a calculation. They do not measure actual stability of the boat. What it really is? well, my personal approach to stability measurement is old fashion: inclining experiment. Lay her down and measure. Couple years ago, when asked to make a sailing course - took the boat, couple of students and heave on the hallyards it was Yup, came back up... but nice to be sure.

If you look at this document...
http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectio...cuments/Stability Listings/Listing 080201.xls

You will see that a figure of 138 for a fin keeled production yacht is exceptional...

The Delphia 37 for instance comes in at considerably less...

But I don't want to give the impression that stability is the be all and end all of safety... For me it was a important factor in my choice... But something like a ovni won't come anywere near to that figure...

 

[Rossynant]

That is what bothers me lately, yes. Old fashioned coward am I, surely. Used to think offshore boat will not put me under.

As I was shopping for a boat, so looked over some data couple years ago, after some 15 years of not being involved in this. And so I started with the idea of buying nice almost new boat, plenty in the MED for cheap in some 5-10 years age - only to finish with old heavy slow longkeel of true British tradition, needing almost every piece of gear to be put anew...

All those "stability calculations" are as good as methodology used, not necessarily showing the real characteristic, nevertheless usually good way to compare boats. Many show a bit less stability than real, just to be on safe side. For instance CO32 shows 155, but I saw 160 somewhere too. Give or take 10 deg, but some characteristics are scary.

Well, once I've built a small 20' trailering centreboard boat, just for sailing on inshore lakes here, that was more stable than "ocean-going-family-cruiser" now.
And she was unsincable too...

BTW - cannot extract the stability requirements table from the rules, but worthy to mention: for boat less then 7 meters LOD required AVS was 150 deg. and boats such as Folkboat complied. Wooden Folkboats were made in thousands here, some I've seen in UK, still sailing.
Did you notice AVS for Fisher, Southerly, Vancouver, Nauticat and such?

 

[Plevier]

There was another one, I believe privately owned, that had it's forestay pull out from the stem.

Would that be the one that featured in a Bav bash thread on here a couple of years ago? The one that had been bodged after a collision?

Quote:

Someone is telling porky's here!
I can shed some light on this, as how it was described by a crew member of one of the other competing, (sorry flotilla) yachts.

About a dozen or more Dutch crewed yachts came into Aegina port on the last Friday, all with numbers on so I assumed and was told they had been racing. The Bavaria in question was in collision with another yacht and sustained some damage to it's bow. The captain was advised not to continue racing but in his wisdom tried a jury rig using his kite uphaul to assist the damaged bow and forestay anchor point.
He was told not to go out again but once again ignored the advice. This is when the bow failed and he became de-masted.
The wind speeds are you have given are correct and probably your appraisal of Bavarias too.
Where I can agree with you on anything about Bravaria it's far quicker to describe their good points rather than bad.
Assuming what I was told was correct which I can't believe any reason for it not to be, then this was down to pure stupidity......!

 

[photodog]

Did you notice AVS for Fisher, Southerly, Vancouver, Nauticat and such?

Yeah, But I can't afford a Southerly, Fisher, Nauticat or Vancouver of the correct vintage to ensure swmbos participation...

 

[Rossynant]

Quite understand you. My boat still awaits replacements, not much really at start but rig, sails, electronics and small stuffs, amounts to a bit... Not exactly necessary, everything is there, but I need to sail her round Europa, closer to home, no reason to wait with replacements. This costs about the same on any boat, anyway, sooner or later.
Still cheaper than new Vancouver (which I know but not fascinated, btw) and I like tinkering with boats, so will make her as I like.

Naturally after one showed for sale I took my girl to look at the boat - had she said it's not to her liking, well... But it's a nice boat, price was right.
Meanwhile no problem to charter something in the Med or Carib for warming up, from what we saved by buying old one.

 

[Tranona]

That is what bothers me lately, yes. Old fashioned coward am I, surely. Used to think offshore boat will not put me under.

As I was shopping for a boat, so looked over some data couple years ago, after some 15 years of not being involved in this. And so I started with the idea of buying nice almost new boat, plenty in the MED for cheap in some 5-10 years age - only to finish with old heavy slow longkeel of true British tradition, needing almost every piece of gear to be put anew...

All those "stability calculations" are as good as methodology used, not necessarily showing the real characteristic, nevertheless usually good way to compare boats. Many show a bit less stability than real, just to be on safe side. For instance CO32 shows 155, but I saw 160 somewhere too. Give or take 10 deg, but some characteristics are scary.

Well, once I've built a small 20' trailering centreboard boat, just for sailing on inshore lakes here, that was more stable than "ocean-going-family-cruiser" now.
And she was unsincable too...

BTW - cannot extract the stability requirements table from the rules, but worthy to mention: for boat less then 7 meters LOD required AVS was 150 deg. and boats such as Folkboat complied. Wooden Folkboats were made in thousands here, some I've seen in UK, still sailing.
Did you notice AVS for Fisher, Southerly, Vancouver, Nauticat and such?

Again you are tying yourself up in knots here. The stability figures quoted in the RYA table are usually supplied by the designer or builder in accordance with the methodology required by the RCD, although there is a choice of different methods which does give rise to some differences when making comparisons. However the very high ones are almost all the result of boats having large superstructures which can significantly increase the AVS. As you have already been advised AVS is typically in the 120-140 range for most boats in the Cat A. The minimum is 100, but to get Cat A the boat has to have a STIX of 32 or above. Length has a big impact on STIX, so the length factor in the AVS requirement that enables such as STIX means that few boats under 30' get into A and most AVS are above 120. Very few are above 150.

You quote examples of boats foundering, but fail to say that almost all of these are overwhelmed by breaking waves close to shore or entering harbours. If you look at this type of incident you will see that many of the boats involved have high AVS. Breaking waves of this type can capsize all sorts of boats - not just modern designs. Rarely do boats capsize in open water because short breaking waves are not common.

Just to balance your claim of superiority of Polish boats, I suggest you look up the threads by Joker who had the misfortune to buy a Polish boat. His well documented account of his experiences, also published at length in the Ychting press would not give anybody confidence in buying a boat from Poland.

 

[Rossynant]

I'm not saying Polish boats are superior, as those are many and of various quality (and in fact many of "western" boats also are Polish made). And I said plainly above that any boat can be obtained in Poland, to any standard. Moreover I'm not happy with the standard. Well, people (or dealers) usually buy cheapest kind...
Just I know those, can show as example. Will not comment on boats for which I haven't seen detailed data.

Naturally bigger boat is safer and less likely to be laid down in waves. And so the STIXes, Capsize Factors and such take it in calcullation. Our rule, while demanding, also has required AVS different for different size. So what?

A man I know was in steel boat Gedania, over 20 metre long schooner, made for north-west passage crossing. She capsized once. Not on plunging breakers at shore, that are normal source of problems, but at high sea. Any boat going into high latitudes or caught in severe storm somewhere is vulnerable. You may see it otherwise, but I'm citing requirements that once were regarded as obvious. Naturally more people drown for other reason than boat capsizing, but this has nothing to do with boat design. Last few years I sailed on big boats, seaworthy ones, made for real hard stuff. Each and every one of them had been knocked down at sea at some time, and all came back. If barely, this classy wooden one. You should see her broken bows, ribs and bulheads smashed in on whole hull... it was mayday action, but no-one could help in conditions there were. About Helgoland, open sea, wind F9. Not a hurricane, not an ocean. 15 metre, 15 ton (18 according to lift weight) boat.

So the times have changed, majority of boats are used mainly as marina standers and sail in nice weather, not going around Horn, sure thing. But sea is the same as always was.

I wanted boat for hard weather since I enjoy this too. May I speak about my own views on the subject, please?

Examples of boats on breaking waves? I sailed the breaking waves, not once even. So I'm biased at this, sure. But I also came back. Moreover my sea experience is very small compared to other forumites here. But have seen this.
Understandable this is not so common and I'm not going to say every boat must be designed to withstand everything, but if someone is speaking about safety...

As for 'superstructures' above deck giving better AVS - this is racing yacht which has over 150 deg AVS, as rule required (about 160 or more, but would need to check to be sure). Flush deck originally, no superstructures. So to have nothing to be washed out in case of capsize, she is wooden and was designed for Whitbread. Capsized there, naturally
http://www.zeglarze.net/wiedza/pokaz-zdjecie/jachty-ptak-ocenu-s-y-copernicus/1227567576

P.S. For your interest - current Stability Requirements by PRS rule: AVS minimum (there are other requirements to this, calculated by the Rule requirement, and must be tested by inclining experiment).
For Lenght of hull (L, in metres) - AVS:
L < 7 : 150°
7 ≤ L < 10 : 140°
10 ≤ L < 15 : 120°
15 ≤ L < 20 : 100°
20 ≤ L ≤ 24 : 90°
It seems the rule is to be mandatory again for yachts over 15 m and for 'commercially operated' smaller ones, so it was made bit less strict. Naturally only boats under Polish flag. Legislation underway, so not sure.

 

[BrianH]

can I ask about your comment re. 'more structural failures'???

I am seriously interested in finding evidence of this. Any links or pointers? Really, not a wind up, just want to find out more. Ta in advance

I believe much of the keel reputation stems from the 2005 Bavaria 42 Match incident in the Adriatic. I was in the same waters at the same time and this prompted me to follow all developments. Bavaria subsequently recalled all Match series to make modifications and slowly, all web references to the incident started to bring up 404 responses. I believe the company worked hard to suppress all details as damage limitation, but the Hungarian sailing club that organised the race put a pdf document on the web at here.

A boat design forum that discussed the incident also remains accessible at here.

The forum link tool is not working properly if you can see the actual URL as I do with preview function, but the link is correct.

Bavaria rushed to put out a report that erroneously reported that the failed yacht had hit a rock, before they had made any investigation and while the keel was still at the bottom of the Adriatic. Apart from the shoddy construction of this particular yacht series they did not come out smelling of roses from the incident.

I am no Bavaria basher. The Match series was a lightly-built performance yacht that had little in common with the normal cruising ranges - indeed I lust over a friend's 42 Ocean that seems beautifully made and which I would be proud to own, although realistically far too large and opulent for my modest needs.

 

[Kelpie]

I witnessed one of those CC boats being grounded... Which lead to extensive damage... I even have a picture of it.... It was on the bar opposite Trelessic house at the bottom of the Fal... The guy was in a rush to get somewere and ran it on at a good 6 knots... I doubt any boat would have survived that without substantial damage to the keel unless they had a steel Frame or a long keel...

Albin Vega handbook, page 5:

Due to the way in which the ballast is bonded in, the keel is both strong and resilient and has
proved able to withstand very hard grounding — full speed against rock — which resulted in so little damage that a simple filling job was the only repair required.

Think I'll stick to a long keel

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Albin Vega handbook, page 5:

Think I'll stick to a long keel

This web site documents the restoration of a Hallberg Rassy Rasmus, the end result is a very beautiful boat, but just because it's got a long keel and is heavily built .... well read for yourself.

Keel damage ....

http://www.lizardheadone.com/Fuel Tank.html

And from the 'Things I have learned' page .....

http://www.lizardheadone.com/Learned.html

Pay attention to boat construction methods. From what I know now, I would stay away from boats that are built in two halves. Boats built in halves and joined together create hull problems such as delamination which is evident on my boat. I would also stay away from iron keels in favor of boats with lead keels, and boats with keel stepped masts instead of deck stepped.

But what a fantastic job he did of restoring her ...

http://www.lizardheadone.com/about-us.html

 

[Tranona]

Albin Vega handbook, page 5:

Think I'll stick to a long keel

You will also come across examples of structural failure with that method of construction - the early HR example baggiewrinkles quotes for one. Also examples where grounding has ruptured the GRP moulding allowing water to get in and corrode the iron ballast. Exactly this happened to a boat that I assembled from mouldings with encapsulated ballast which subsequently suffered a grounding.

Dehler had a promotional video a few years ago to show that their bolt on fin keel could withstand grounding by motoring it straight into rocks. Made specifically to try and persuade sceptics.

 

[Woodlouse]

Would that be the one that featured in a Bav bash thread on here a couple of years ago? The one that had been bodged after a collision?

No. The one I'm referring to happened in Falmouth and wasn't a charter boat.