Greenheart
Well-Known Member
+1, nice bit of good sense. Lots of over-used cliches aren't fully understood (or even meant!) by their users.
Bavaria Bashers Beware!
- Thread starter capnsensible
- Start date
+1, nice bit of good sense. Lots of over-used cliches aren't fully understood (or even meant!) by their users.
markleuty
Well-Known Member
I must admit to being a bit of a Bavaria Basher myself, but that's only 'cause we recently sold our Benny First 30e and bought an Ocean 40 and as yet, I haven't quite got used to the extra length, weight and windage, so do tend to bash into pontoons with alarming regularity.
But as a 5 month a year liveabord marina hopper, who generally only sails in good weather, I must admit that she is nowhere near as nice as the Malos and HR's that we have looked at. My friend has a Tradewind 35 which too is a lovely machine. But I'm a skin flint and can put up with the creaking and doors not fitting for the rather nice aft cabin where I can sleep in total comfort.
To be honest, I'm not even sure if we still have out keel attached as any windward stuff we encounter, we normally motor.
I've got a rubbish car as well, but I only use that for driving so I'm not so bothered.
But I do have a very very expensive laptop so I can write total 130LOX on forums
Mark
But as a 5 month a year liveabord marina hopper, who generally only sails in good weather, I must admit that she is nowhere near as nice as the Malos and HR's that we have looked at. My friend has a Tradewind 35 which too is a lovely machine. But I'm a skin flint and can put up with the creaking and doors not fitting for the rather nice aft cabin where I can sleep in total comfort.
To be honest, I'm not even sure if we still have out keel attached as any windward stuff we encounter, we normally motor.
I've got a rubbish car as well, but I only use that for driving so I'm not so bothered.
But I do have a very very expensive laptop so I can write total 130LOX on forums
Mark
Simondjuk
Well-Known Member
Since my Bav 38 has pretty much the same displacement as a Hallberg-Rassy 37, the HR no doubt has more substantial internal furniture and is fitted with a slightly weightier keel, should it be assumed that the HR is lightweight, flimsy rubbish as its hull and deck structures must surely contain less material than my Bav's? 
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
Since my Bav 38 has pretty much the same displacement as a Hallberg-Rassy 37, the HR no doubt has more substantial internal furniture and is fitted with a slightly weightier keel, should it be assumed that the HR is lightweight, flimsy rubbish as its hull and deck structures must surely contain less material than my Bav's?
I'm definitely not pi55ing on your boat; this thread and other recent descriptions have led me to think much more highly of Bavs and the type; but while the Bav 38 and HR 37 have similar LWL, the Bav is at least a couple of feet longer overall, and critically, she's a full foot wider...and in truth the HR seems to be half a tonne heavier than the bigger yacht...I think that's about 15%...so the Swede must be more dense in some department, no?
Elessar
Well-Known Member
I was told by a surveyor I trust that (on the 44 I asked him to look at) the bulkheads aren't actually bulkheads, but partitions. ie they deliberately free float. This means the topsides are unbraced and bendy if squashed from the side.
This is why, when crushed hard against a pontoon by a 20m mobo, it only needed T cut to mend it.
If braced and apparently "stronger", the hard stress points would have meant an expensive repair said the surveyor.
So you are completely right.
Simondjuk
Well-Known Member
Not at all and no worries.
Regarding 'lightweightness', however, take away the ballast, and the HR is 4300kg, the Bav 4800kg. Call the Bav's extra half ton an allowance for her additional size, and each boat would seem to be of similar density, only I'd wager the HR contains proportionately more teak and mahogany in the interior, so perhaps the Bav more GRP in the hull.
I don't know for sure, I'm only guessing/speculating. I'm also entirely accepting of the fact that the HR is undeniably a superior quality boat. If I could afford to spend four or five times the value of my boat on a HR, I probably would. Although now I've thought about it, I'd prefer if the hull were a bit weightier.
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Greenheart
Well-Known Member
Funny how supercar manufacturers build a monster costing, say, £250,000...and then they offer a special lightweight edition, for an extra £75K. I wonder what AWB builders would charge for near-identical models, with added weight as extra stiffening? 
Rossynant
Well-Known Member
No idea, but it's at least £ 2000 per ton, + work. Not much really.I wonder what AWB builders would charge for near-identical models, with added weight as extra stiffening?
Only then it's heavier hull - modern boat has hull above the water, so then more ballast must be given to retain stability criteria (at some price). And more sail area must be put for same speed. But for heavier ballast and rig you need stronger hull still, so more laminate must be given there - but then it's heavier, so more ballast and sail must be added - but then again more...
See?
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
...But for heavier ballast and rig you need stronger hull still, so more laminate must be given there - but then it's heavier, so more ballast and sail must be added - but then again more...
See?
Yes...on reflection, I've always very much liked steel yachts...
Rossynant
Well-Known Member
Me too. Boy, are they heavy!
Baggywrinkle
Well-Known Member
My understanding of the phrase is that it is used to highlight prejudice. This thread is an excellent example.
If someone were to believe that Bavaria build rubbish boats then they (hopefully) would also realise that this is a ridiculous statement to make and is most likely untrue. It doesn't stop them believing it as a general rule though. They would have a prejudice that they might not admit to because it can't be defended.
So how to prove the prejudice exists if people won't openly admit to it?
This is where the exception comes in. If someone were to post about a Bavaria actually being a great boat then this challenges the accepted prejudice, and is the exception that proves that the general rule (Bavaria = bad) exists.
The vitriolic outpourings of many on this thread then removes all doubt
It can be applied to all prejudices, be that race related, appearance, nationality. As soon as someone points out an exception, it proves the 'rule' or prejudice exists, even if the person pointing out the exception doesn't actually believe it.
Another example would be "I met a lad in a hoody the other day who turned out to be a really nice young man" would be the exception that proves the rule - hoody wearers are yobs - exists.
capnsensible
Well-Known Member
Nice one Baggywrinkle. This is the whole point of my original post. I actually went sailing on a brand new version that adresses previous whines. Yet you still get those that make nonsense posts on heresay alone and are not willing to accept that life and design, unlike their predjudice, moves on.
Would really like to hear from a Bavaria Basher that has actually sailed one too!!! Not gonna hold my breath though!
Personally, I have sailed probably a hundred or more different yachts over the years including many Bavarias. The only real defect Ive had on one was a steering failure. System made by Lewmar.
Would really like to hear from a Bavaria Basher that has actually sailed one too!!! Not gonna hold my breath though!
Personally, I have sailed probably a hundred or more different yachts over the years including many Bavarias. The only real defect Ive had on one was a steering failure. System made by Lewmar.
nathanlee
Well-Known Member
I have. Surfing along the Jurassic coast along in the overfalls near Swanage (can't remember the name) on the way to Weymouth.
Really enjoyed it.
Still wouldn't buy a Bav though. Not if it was my money. Same as I wouldn't buy a new cheap car. I'd rather have a second hand one from a decent manufacturer. Had new vauxhall's and fords before now, and hated them so much. Horrible things to drive. Anyway, thread drift. I sailed a bav, I enjoyed it, but I wouldn't buy one given the other options out there.
Iliade
Well-Known Member
capnsensible
Well-Known Member
Nice to hear a reasoned reply, thank you!
Baggywrinkle
Well-Known Member
A reasoned view, and one I shared until I did have the money and went looking for a boat suitable for a family of 5 (3 teenage sons) plus dog to cruise the Adriatic. Once I'd actually established what the real intended use would be, and taken into account SWMBOs preferences for little luxuries like nice head, shower and a bit of space and cleanliness, it became painfully obvious that the best deal was a used AWB and the Bavaria offered the best deal at the time.
Now I've got it I love it.
Bajansailor
Well-Known Member
Here is an excellent video showing how Bavaria yachts are built http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIciQXXkd4Q
I think that one could perhaps argue that a computer and robot cutting out bulkheads would be more accurate than a person doing the job manually.
Most folk on here are happy with automated production lines building their cars, so why are some so critical of the same techniques being applied to building boats?
I think that one could perhaps argue that a computer and robot cutting out bulkheads would be more accurate than a person doing the job manually.
Most folk on here are happy with automated production lines building their cars, so why are some so critical of the same techniques being applied to building boats?
Baggywrinkle
Well-Known Member
Thanks for that ... here is the counterproposal from Rustler - the dream that most of us simply can't afford when it gets down to the cold hard cash ....
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
Wish my teacher had put it like thatMy understanding of the phrase is that it is used to highlight prejudice. This thread is an excellent example.
If someone were to believe that Bavaria build rubbish boats then they (hopefully) would also realise that this is a ridiculous statement to make and is most likely untrue. It doesn't stop them believing it as a general rule though. They would have a prejudice that they might not admit to because it can't be defended.
So how to prove the prejudice exists if people won't openly admit to it?
This is where the exception comes in. If someone were to post about a Bavaria actually being a great boat then this challenges the accepted prejudice, and is the exception that proves that the general rule (Bavaria = bad) exists.
The vitriolic outpourings of many on this thread then removes all doubt
It can be applied to all prejudices, be that race related, appearance, nationality. As soon as someone points out an exception, it proves the 'rule' or prejudice exists, even if the person pointing out the exception doesn't actually believe it.
Another example would be "I met a lad in a hoody the other day who turned out to be a really nice young man" would be the exception that proves the rule - hoody wearers are yobs - exists.
There again he probably did but i was dreaming of boats
Downsman
Well-Known Member
What a lot of fuss. Everyone knows Bavarias don't go to a scrap yard, they're re-cycled. Not a very complicated job either apparently as most of the main structure is retained. Mast out, a whack with a hammer on the keel and straight onto a rolling chassis.. Here you are..
http://uk-img2.ciao.com/iuk/images/products/normal/673/product-6509673.jpg
http://uk-img2.ciao.com/iuk/images/products/normal/673/product-6509673.jpg