Bathing ladder - essential safety tool?

Different boats need different variations on the theme. My Rustler has a long stern overhang so any boarding ladder there would need to be rigid (as well as off-centre to avoid the keel-hung rudder). The Monitor windvane gear is pretty easy to climb from the water. An amidships rope ladder, weighted and deployable from the water, sounds like a good addition for single-handed sailing.
 
I now understand that having pontoon ladders is part of the Yacht Harbour Association requirements.

So, if your marine doesn't have ladders, check to see if they belong.
 
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Depends. It is really hard to handle anything at the stern while riding sideways over wave crests.

[/ QUOTE ] As you say, depends. The point is that you (on the helm) don't need to handle anything at the stern. That's down to the MOB. [ QUOTE ]
Also any stern ladder is useless.

[/ QUOTE ] I assume you mean 'in a seaway'. And here I'd beg to disagree. We regularly swim in anchorages when there's a chop. Although it seems fearsome to imagine the 1 metre bucking in a F4 seaway, we've actually tried it (with an incoming sea breeze at anchor) and it is remarkably easy with a rigid ladder. Hands out make very good and flexible fenders/grippers, and once there's a foot in, you're made. Agreed, there will be a limit. But just think of those big ship pilots boarding at sea . . . OK amidships. But, wow! That's motion, and yes, they're practised. [ QUOTE ]
Using the engine to maintain beam on, just risks cutting the feet off the swimmer

[/ QUOTE ] Usually there's a rudder in the way, and the wash blasts feet rearward if anything. Agree, one wouldn't use astern! Usually it's just tweaks ahead with full helm one way or the other. [ QUOTE ]
Temporary ladder. We have a block and tackle on the main boom that can be deployed in seconds.

[/ QUOTE ] That's where I started. First with a hook to go into the harness, then with a hook and a loop. But then we spent a day practicing recoveries when at anchor (crew's insistence). We're only two, and tho' I could bring crew aboard within about 10 minutes (after lots of mods to the pulley system and adding some jam cleats) she couldn't manage me within 20. So we went stern ladder . . . she was right, as usual, to insist on testing the theory . . .

You've probably been through similar tests and formed different conclusions that work for your crewing situation and boat. Fine.

Moral: learn to test, then test to learn. Then you don't have to rely on opinions, you can find your own solutions.
 
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I think that you are right that it is an important safety feature, up and down but I also think that it is useless / dangerous in a seaway as the boat pitches .
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May you never fall overboard ......... the above (useless/dangerous in a seaway) is the stupidest thing I've ever read on this forum.
 
You obviously don't read very much then ....

As I said - I've recovered 4 swimmers using the boarding ladder, I use it myself (though this is with intentional swimming) and whilst I'd rather not have to use it in anger it would still be my first point of call ... especially as it has PROVED so successful.

Our sugarscoop is low in the water rather than some of these that end up a foot out of the water, so with the ladder down you'd be unlucky to land up underneath (assuming you're concious) ... and the first priority must be to get out of the water ASAP ... I'd rather attempt the boarding ladder first, then move to less effective solutions afterwards.
 
Why all the hassle with pitching - or are you hypothesising? When coming aboard from the dinghy in a bouncy anchorage, you get the TIMING right. similarly, coming in after a swim ( whether intentional or not) let the wave lift you most way up the ladder then move as quickly as possible- never been sucked back off again yet. In a good bounce, the underwater extension isn't needed. All the above assumes swimmer is in control/capable, of course.
 
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We normally board the boat from the tender at the stern and quite often the steps are used (in the stowed position) to pull against, so they are firmly tied up.

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I am sure this is very common practice and understandable, but you have to be careful if there is any strong tide running not to get the dinghy - if rigid anyway - across the tide. Friends of ours some years ago did that in the Stour at Wrabness one evening.
An inadvertent movement, the dinghy rolled over and everyone was swimming, fortunately the 2 children and their mother managed to get hold of the bottom of the raised bathing ladder and hold on. They were unable to pull themselves aboard though. The other adult was swept away, but was very fortunate to get hold of a line that was trailing from another yacht on the trots. They were all shouting but no-one ashore on the beach heard them. Very luckily there was a canoeist out on the river who did hear, and went ashore to get help. So no casualties just a lot of anxiety and a serious distaste for boarding from the aft end of a yacht!!!
 
Unless alone in the tender we fasten the tender across the back of the boat using a bow line and a stern line - these are tied tight enough to stabalise the tender against the back of the boat whilst the crew transfer. This is with a Walkerbay 10. The trickiest bit is for me to do the initial transfer - the bow is looped through first and then I use the engine to drive the stern of the tender around, then with the engine still driving I can step across to the bathing platform (usually pulling the killchord as I go) ... this method has worked fine for the last 3 years ... and I haven't lost a crew member overboard yet!
 
We also have a Rustler 36 and an Aries Vane Gear, which is impossible (for me) to climb. I wanted a stern mounted bathing ladder for the rare occasions when we may want to go swimming, but mainly as a piece of safety equipment.
This year I fitted an off the shelf folding ladder from Plastimo, with extension struts to meet the raked transom. This works very well, offset to one side where it doesn't interfere with the Aries or the transom hung rudder.
FWIW I think the dangers of MOB stern recovery are overstated - most fast pilot boats, which often operate in very exposed conditions, are equipped with stern recovery equipment. The MOB risk to pilots transferring from boat to ship's pilot ladder and vice versa is high and MOB recovery is a priority safety consideration.
 
I think, Fireball, that you misunderstood my comment. I was criticising the bright spark who called a stern ladder useless!
I once lost a very dear friend at sea who couldn't get back aboard after he lost his mast and got knocked over the stern - he was tangled in the rigging and couldn't do much - his crew were two non-sailors who panicked and had no thoughts about rigging a line round a winch or the boom - he may have been saved with a ladder - by the time he got untangled he was too weak to do anything and in the end he let go and drifted away - I wish I'd been there.
I couldn't believe anyone could make such a stupid comment about stern ladders being useless! I wonder if some people on here ever go to sea - or actually own boats for that matter!
 
I dive both for fun and commercially. We regularly have to use stern fixed ladders in full dive gear and although they are potentially a bit risky in a chop they do generally work OK, although a lot of yacht boarding ladders are not that well designed. In the Red sea all the dive boats have stern ladders on a flat aft dive platform. However the ladders are set off the back of the boat a few inches, and the boats are typicaly large, although they roll a lot. The key thing is getting the timing right and not keep the casualty hanging round too near the stern. Rope ladders realy do not well on some boats our hunter Duette has a dish shaped hull and the ladder just gets pushed under the boat when you start climbing. I am 40, fit and used to climb a lot and I couldn't get back into the boat amidships in a marina, when I tried it! I will be fitting a stern ladder this winter and will also come up with a usuable plan for using the boom.
 
I have to agree with you re the stern ladder rescue problems in a seaway, there are the risks you describe, prop, stern coming down, as you say, bad enough in the dinghy, we btw, have a platform and ladder, fine in calm conditions. But, imho the midships leeside is the place to get a bod on board in a seaway, we have system for this.
Re the point about having the ladder tied up, I luckly heard one night 0100!,on the R Guadiana, shouts from the river, grabbed a mate and a boat to find two Brit drunks in the water at the stern of their anchored boat, dinghy capsized, 8yr old child had got aboard but couldn,t untie the ladder. They would have been swept away very soon. I havn,t tied up my ladder since.
 
I said a stern ladder was useless and for very good reasons.

I never said a ladder was not useful. Its the stern bit.

Setting up a rescue system that is independent on the sea state is the only way. It has to be automatic and quick and fool proof. You can't have half the crew thinking its calm enough for one method and the other going for a different method. I do not want arguments I want to be rescued!

Also comparing what a motor vessel does with a wide flat bottom, and most weight aft, to a normal yacht is not realistic with regard to pitching motion. I agree that some of the surf board type yacht hulls would have different motion characteristics.

And since you wonder of my experience about the motion of the stern of a boat I have certainly had enough. Never in anger, but we have tried practise rescues mid channel, 200 miles off Mexico and many anchorages. We have also stopped the boat in the Biscay in 4m swell, and Mid Atlantic, and in 35 knot winds 3 days from Australia, and have seen the conditions and possibilities of rescuing people. I have also seen dinghies punctured and mine damaged under the stern equipment of boats. A disabled or exhausted swimmer does not have the reactions or cognition to know when to get out of the way of a suddenly leaping stern of a boat.

The leeward mid point of the boat is the only safe place to head for, and that is where your crew should be trying to get you and have the necessary hooks lines or ladders. The advantage on a yacht is that the controlled roll of the smooth side can be used to initially lift the person clear of the water.

These are swimming ladders for bathing in bright tropical anchorages just like you see on the yacht brochures.
 
Slightly off topic!

Did they ever find out what happened to the missing crew from the yacht found off Australia earlier in the year, where all was present and shipshape on board, except the crew were missing?
Is it possible they went for a swim and could not get back on board?
 
I wouldn't knock a well thought out midships MOB recovery set up.

However, this normally needs to be rigged and as we usually sail with only two persons on board, a MOB situation means that half the crew is in the water and there are no arguments going on about which recovery method is best.

One advantage of a stern ladder is that it is already rigged and if the MOB can reach it before hypothermia sets in, he or she has a good chance of climbing it unaided. This represents the only realistic recovery situation if I am in the water and my wife is the only person left on board.

My experience has been that it is easier to negotiate the ladder from the water in a chop than from the dinghy and I don't really see where the dinghy comes into the argument.
 
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I said a stern ladder was useless and for very good reasons.

[/ QUOTE ] I accept that your arguments show a stern ladder may be useless in two situations:

1. When the vessel is bows to a sea and is pitching so violently that it would be dangerous to approach the stern.

2. When the MOB is some incapacitated to some degree.

As to pitching: what wind strength and associated sea state would create this situation is a matter of opinion, and will vary with hull type. Perhaps one could settle on a mature F4? Much reduced with an incapacitated climber. And whether the pitching could be mitigated by going beam to wind is another matter of opinion on which we will differ.

It seems wrong to me to declare a stern ladder useless when more benign conditions are common, perhaps the majority of real cases. Surely, it could be the first point for attempted boarding, to be declared useless only if it is found not to work for the current situation?

And, of course, multiple crew situations make rope/midships recovery much easier.

Has anyone out there actually timed their midship recoveries? With single crew heaving? Or are we talking theory? I've only done it at anchor . . . warm water, noted above.
 
My ladder is on the stern mounted to the deck that over hangs the hull. Picked up 3 people once in a F5. They just waited until the stern was well down and stepped on to the ladder. To put it on the beam means a higher climb and other issues. I like the idea of clips to hold the ladder up rather than tying. Another winter project coming up!! /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 
Hello Yaker I like the rest of us are dependant on the media for info but as far as I know the crew were never found and it all remains a mystery. For those unfamiliar a large cat was found in the Pacific apparently all in order but crew gone. There were 3 fenders over one side. The crew were sailing the boat just bought back to West Oz around the top. There had been a storm since they departed but there was no apparent damage. Sails were up and even a laptop left on the table that had been running.

Back to boarding a boat. The best thing to do is try it. Fortunately with warmish water we do a lot of swimming around the boat and occasionally board from the water.

Mine is a small boat and I have a plastic step bolted near the waterline. I could just hoist myself up to the stern rail by puting a foot on this step. Now getting older I have attached a SS rod step that hinges from the mount of the step down to about 12inches under water. This makes it easier to get up onto the step. The difficult part seems to be to get over the stern rail. I need a break in the rail. But you do need something high to pull with hands to hoist body up.

You really need to try an boarding method from the water. Especially if you are wearing a heavy wet suit. olewill
 
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