Baltic 39 as liveaboard? Or opt for Grand Soleil/Scanmar/Sweden/Sigma/Malo?

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jvardy

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I've been looking at tons of used boat listings, hunting for our future liveaboard cruiser, with the goal of doing a leisurely circumnavigation. We are a couple, in our mid-30s (both not very tall).

We have come across a well maintained and recently refit Baltic 39. We have gone over it in detail and I have a few doubts that I hope someone might be able confirm or dispel:

- Will it do for a liveaboard in the way of stowage? This particular model has sacrificed the aft cabin under-bunk storage for additional water tankage (2x350L for a total of 1050L) and the cockpit lockers are small. The interior also doesn't have a great deal of storage (compared to for example the Scanmar 40, which has cabinets and shelves everywhere)

- Is it a good boat for a couple? I've read a few very positive reviews and one that mentioned it could be a bit overpowered. Also, it has the IOR styled pinched transom so I am concerned she might be a bit rolley / have a tendency to broach on a run.

I personally prefer the look and build quality of the late-80's to mid 90's, and have been looking at:
- Grand Soleil 42 (Frers)
- Sweden Yachts 41
- Scanmar 40
- Sigma 41
- Malo 116 / 39
- Wauquiez Centurion 42

All have a reputation for a strong build (some have steel grids and partial skeg rudders) and have a decent D/L and ballast/displacement ratio that would make me think they are good offshore boats. I am also looking to strike a balance in their sailing qualities. Most forum threads that mention these models are positive on their offshore performance.

Any thoughts on the Baltic or any of our alternatives? Perhaps good to know we are based in Europe, so favor European yachts due to availability.
 
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Don't know most of them, but crewed (1 of 3, 1 sick so 2 effective) on a Siggy 41 from Dorset to Finisterre one November, in the face of SW gales and very unpleasant waves.
It didn't seem to bother the boat at all, no creaks or groans, nothing broke. It was a well-used high mileage example, but wore it well.
I'd forgotten about that little jaunt (or repressed the memory, it wasn't much fun..) but the Sigma just shrugged it off. On that basis, well put together boats.
It had an aft cabin with en-suite.
 
A number of years ago I was about to buy one, secondhand, I was choosing between three available at the time. Then things did not get through.
I won t list all the attractive features they have, from concept to construction beautiful boats they are, rather the ones I did not like, which of course may be must-have for others with different priorities:
2.2m draft
all those winches around the mast base
saildrive
low tankage
rather "muscly" rig/sailplan, good for sailing with athletic friends, probably less singlehanded or with a family
the baltic (at the time) designing/building approach: virtual circle of reducing displacement - reduce scantlings - etc, with a liveaboard boat the amount of things one risks to get on board may well convert it into a vicious circle. Style of cruising maybe.
:)
 
One name that doesn't feature on your list is Amel ? I guess the choice is driven by your particular priorities , timescales for acquiring , ability and time to travel to view and particular budget. I suppose any vessel of this age will require some maintenance however I just wonder if costs of maintains say a Sweden yacht which always look lovely BTW might be higher than other marques listed? You might also be influenced by an active owners club which might be a source of valuable learnings as to what issues any might have. Your list seems to favour Nordic vessels so if this features in your travel plans it might be preferable to the GS or other non Nordic ones? Also choice might ultimately turn on kit on board and your travel plans and crew strength. If for example ease of use is key avoid ones which need muscled crew and look for anything which simplifies tasks . Also take the time to go and speak to a good broker about the choices , some post on here whose views always seem sound . Ultimately though list your priorities and rate each vessel against these by references to ones you can view maybe?
 
And remember that if you're looking at boats with large overlapping headsails, it doesn't mean you have to cruise with a headsail that big. A smaller no. 2 sized headsail will make it easier to take for a small crew and as you're not racing you can use the engine when there's only a few knots of wind.
 
lpdsn said:
And remember that if you're looking at boats with large overlapping headsails, it doesn't mean you have to cruise with a headsail that big. A smaller no. 2 sized headsail will make it easier to take for a small crew and as you're not racing you can use the engine when there's only a few knots of wind.
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also, *very* practical during longer crossings with fresh gusty winds: I usually put two reefs and let them there, while adjusting the power with the genoa furler, a few turns on a few off. That allows to manage say 15 to 25kt+ very easily, instead of relying on a very small headsail and having to reef/unreef all the time to keep the boat going in a decent way. Should a more severe squall arrive, genoa all furled and with two reefs the mainsail can bear *a lot* of wind.
 
Graham376 said:
General consensus is to avoid teak decks in hot climates so for me that would rule out a couple of the ones listed for circumnavigation.
Click to expand...

Yes, we would prefer without but it's rare to find one without for the models we are looking at. My thoughts are to remove the teak at some point in our circumnavigation where it is cheap to do so.
 
ashtead said:
One name that doesn't feature on your list is Amel ? I guess the choice is driven by your particular priorities , timescales for acquiring , ability and time to travel to view and particular budget. I suppose any vessel of this age will require some maintenance however I just wonder if costs of maintains say a Sweden yacht which always look lovely BTW might be higher than other marques listed? You might also be influenced by an active owners club which might be a source of valuable learnings as to what issues any might have. Your list seems to favour Nordic vessels so if this features in your travel plans it might be preferable to the GS or other non Nordic ones? Also choice might ultimately turn on kit on board and your travel plans and crew strength. If for example ease of use is key avoid ones which need muscled crew and look for anything which simplifies tasks . Also take the time to go and speak to a good broker about the choices , some post on here whose views always seem sound . Ultimately though list your priorities and rate each vessel against these by references to ones you can view maybe?
Click to expand...

I particularly agree with your comment about owners groups, there are some really active ones on some makes and none whatsoever for others. I'll add that one to my list, thanks!

I've looked at Amels and I understand they are very capable and bulletproof boats. The ones within our budget are very old though and all seem to need a lot of TLC. Plus ketch rigs although versatile to me seem would add more gear and costs.

I'm not stuck on the Nordic models per se, I think it's more a result of our priorities, budget and location (Netherlands). I've tried to list my priorities
  1. Offshore capable, sea-kindly, safe
  2. Performs well on all points of sail
  3. Able to be handled by two persons without resorting to electric support (so I think no more than 42')
  4. Stowage for a passage of 21 days
  5. Pretty enough to be proud of (a bit vain, yes)
  6. Not cramped:
    1. Cabins with some living space beyond just the berth
    2. Saloon with at least a corner settee
    3. Cockpit with space to stretch out
  7. No project boat (I am handy but I want to sail!)
  8. Kitted out for blue water or priced in such a way that the kit can be added

Other preferences, in order:
  • No furling main (seen two failures, not keen on risking it)
  • Tankage of 150L+ fuel and 300L+ water
  • A safe galley (a corner galley for example) with sufficient workspace
  • One decent owners cabin (and good sea berths of course)
  • 2 heads (in case one fails at sea)
  • Decent ventilation
  • Plenty of cabinets and shelving
  • Good nav station
  • Inner forestay
  • Active owners group
  • No teak (hard one in European boats), and if it has to be then preferably glued, not screwed down

Budget for purchase and fit-out: 85K (EUR)

I'm open to other suggestions. I've looked at Beneteau 42/435 as I understand these are well built but there are very few for sale in Europe and the ones that are, are not appealing.

I am guessing this is a question of having my cake or eating it.
 
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Roberto said:
A number of years ago I was about to buy one, secondhand, I was choosing between three available at the time. Then things did not get through.
I won t list all the attractive features they have, from concept to construction beautiful boats they are, rather the ones I did not like, which of course may be must-have for others with different priorities:
2.2m draft
all those winches around the mast base
saildrive
low tankage
rather "muscly" rig/sailplan, good for sailing with athletic friends, probably less singlehanded or with a family
the baltic (at the time) designing/building approach: virtual circle of reducing displacement - reduce scantlings - etc, with a liveaboard boat the amount of things one risks to get on board may well convert it into a vicious circle. Style of cruising maybe.
:)
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Thanks. This particular one has a shaft drive and a bit too much tankage. I think I am okay with the draft but what concerns me is the manageability of the rig and how much it will roll downwind. I've sailed a 38ft Bavaria and a 41ft Hanse but I don't really have experience in these IOR style designs. Am I making a poor choice here?
 
Roberto said:
also, *very* practical during longer crossings with fresh gusty winds: I usually put two reefs and let them there, while adjusting the power with the genoa furler, a few turns on a few off. That allows to manage say 15 to 25kt+ very easily, instead of relying on a very small headsail and having to reef/unreef all the time to keep the boat going in a decent way. Should a more severe squall arrive, genoa all furled and with two reefs the mainsail can bear *a lot* of wind.
Click to expand...

Thanks, that's a nice strategy. Would you use a Code 0 for light weather instead the 150%? I was thinking that this way I could have the #2 on the fixed furler and have the Code 0 as a light wind option that can easily be rigged.
 
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You might do worse than check out Jonic of this forums website as a broker and see what he might offer along the lines suggested. Personally support avoiding in mast reefing as well if you are both reasonably young and fit . This summer saw a couple alongside us in a hallberg 42 seemed to have run into a costly issue with theirs and while they were safely tucked up in the marina it looked like their budget was about to take a heavy hit to replace some of the internal mechanics .and their starting price for their vessel would have been well over your budget. Not certain I would be so fixed on 2 heads if space is important but all down to personal preference of course . Holding tanks tend to be the curse of heads as opposed to units themselves sometimes.
 
jvardy said:
I'm open to other suggestions. I've looked at Beneteau 42/435 as I understand these are well built but there are very few for sale in Europe and the ones that are, are not appealing. I am guessing this is a question of having my cake or eating it.
Click to expand...

Moody 425 would be worth looking at, should be able to find one around your budget.
 
jvardy said:
Thanks, that's a nice strategy. Would you use a Code 0 for light weather instead the 150%? I was thinking that this way I could have the #2 on the fixed furler and have the Code 0 as a light wind option that can easily be rigged.
Click to expand...

I have a 130% on the furler, I am definitely missing a low windspeed sail for longer crossings.
Apart from the pleasure of day sailing when you go with what you have, if I am out to make some mileage, under say 10kt wind/4kt boat speed it's Perkins headsail (or wait :) ); we all get geared up with strong winds options whereas -except if one likes antarctica- it's often the light wind sails that are missing.
 
ashtead said:
You might do worse than check out Jonic of this forums website as a broker and see what he might offer along the lines suggested. Personally support avoiding in mast reefing as well if you are both reasonably young and fit . This summer saw a couple alongside us in a hallberg 42 seemed to have run into a costly issue with theirs and while they were safely tucked up in the marina it looked like their budget was about to take a heavy hit to replace some of the internal mechanics .and their starting price for their vessel would have been well over your budget. Not certain I would be so fixed on 2 heads if space is important but all down to personal preference of course . Holding tanks tend to be the curse of heads as opposed to units themselves sometimes.
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I've checked his list of boats for sale, sadly all above budget. We saw a video of a Scanmar he sold a couple of years back which was absolutely perfect (fine condition and fully kitted). Partly why it's on the list above.
 
Graham376 said:
Moody 425 would be worth looking at, should be able to find one around your budget.
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Thanks, we looked at a 425 in The Netherlands. I like the layout, it has a lot going for it and would be great as a liveaboard. The one in NL sadly was very tired and I think most have roller mains. I'll keep a look out for others.
 
The Bavarias from early 90's make good live aboards.

I've done long cruises across to caribbean on Sweden 38 and Bav 390, and found the Bav a better boat for us.

Tankage is interesting as you can't rely on (or I wouldn't) one or two fresh water tanks, you need an alternative in case a tank gets contaminated so you will have bottled water for the longer passages. Two heads a good plan, bunk beds are also good as a storage room and extra space for visitors. Teak decks on the Bav and the Sweden were fine in the Caribbean, at anchor just have a wide tent up to the mast to keep the sun off the side decks. I terms of how they sail you might just treat them differently, rolling can be reduced by reducing power and flattening sails or using two head sails that role together and no main. I'd just say don't dismiss anything and look at as many as you can. I never planned on a Bavaria but it turned out to be a great boat.
 
jvardy said:
I'm open to other suggestions. I've looked at Beneteau 42/435 as I understand these are well built but there are very few for sale in Europe and the ones that are, are not appealing.
Click to expand...

Don't discount the First 405 either - sold in more numbers and great sailboats either for cruising or in their day racing. Try and find one with a lead keel over iron and three spreader rig - as before you do not need to use it all but is useful for light airs.

Jeanneau Sun Legende 41 is also a great choice along with Sun Magic 44 and Sun Kiss 45.

All can be great value and have a lot of solid wood below plus can handle a breeze!
 
E39mad said:
Don't discount the First 405 either - sold in more numbers and great sailboats either for cruising or in their day racing. Try and find one with a lead keel over iron and three spreader rig - as before you do not need to use it all but is useful for light airs.

Jeanneau Sun Legende 41 is also a great choice along with Sun Magic 44 and Sun Kiss 45.

All can be great value and have a lot of solid wood below plus can handle a breeze!
Click to expand...

Thanks, the Sun Magic 44 seems a good option: owners cabin, inner forestay, good ratios, nice interior, partial skeg-hung rudder, good access via the transom. Added to the list! I'll take a look at the others too.
 
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