Baffled by charter yachts anchoring technique

[sailaboutvic]

Sounds very similar to our experience a few weeks ago which I posted about. On that occasion we managed to up anchor and move even though it was almost midnight.

Let us know what happens, Vic.

Richard

That well pretty well .
There was No way could we get our poor little hook up ,
So I used a little bit of charm on my part on the captain ,
he said , no problem I did know we was over you but didn't think you be leaving in this weather , give us five mins to get the guest in the rib and we move out of your way .
And to his word he did , what a nice man .

 

[[70521]]

We saw a whole flotilla of charter boats doing this in the posidonoa at Formentera for a good 2 hours. Each boat must have reanchored at least six times, each time pulling up a huge chunk of seaweed.

Have you let the Seahorse Trust know? I am sure they would be very interested.

 

[Joker]

To be fair, anchoring on weed can be dodgy. In the Baltic there is eelgrass [referred to locally as grass] which holds initially, but which easily pulls out and clogs the anchor, so it doesn't reset.

 

[alfabeat]

Some good tips here on Ionian mooring techniques
http://www.nisosyachtcharter.com/the-ionian/ionian-mooring-techniques

 

[SV Kittiwake]

Before throwing out a gratuitous insult, at least check your facts...

I'm not sure there's any gratuitous insult in my post, it's a comment on a licensing system. And it's based on extensive observation. Over the course of this summer in the Med (Spain and Sardinia) we've watched maybe 2-300 boats anchor (120 days at anchor give or take), and the number who have reversed on their anchor (the most basic of techniques) is less than 10. It's so rare that we actually notice it. The boats anchoring with some sort of technique you might read in a textbook are invariably Swedish, Canadian, Amarican, generally people further from home. I can hand on heart say I've never seen an Italian boat having its anchor bedded in by engine. So what use is the Italian licensing system in respect to helping people anchor properly?

 

[NkdSailor]

Jut out of interest, being a non ticketed, owner (I have an Oz ticket but it is a simple tick box test)

What are the requirement for anchoring defined by your various tickets.

You can be a very accomplished and renowned yachtsman, or woman - but that does not mean you anchor very often.

Yes! I've anchored a lot with my own boats (mostly stern anchors when docking bow first) but always manually and never had a boat with a windlass. So when we did our first charter I specifically asked the check-in person to tell me how to operate it, only to later find out that he didn't know/gave us bad instructions. So we had a few hairy moments when we did it the first time, but the learning curve was steep

 

[SlowlyButSurely]

Some good tips here on Ionian mooring techniques
http://www.nisosyachtcharter.com/the-ionian/ionian-mooring-techniques

Thanks. This explains a lot, including why all the charter boats drag when the wind gets up to force 6.

 

[[70521]]

It is not just charter boats!

Very few people anchor these days; they move from marina to marina and thus don't practice. Given that they are chartering they may only get on a boat for two weeks of the year.

Over the last decade I've been on a few boats where the skipper was "nervous" about spending the night on the hook, but it is not that difficult just needs a bit of practice and a whole new experience opens up.

 

[Neeves]

What I find fascinating is that most business models would suggest ensuring customer satisfaction engendering repeat business. This is seen with cars, pull them in with a bottom end of the range and ensure they are happy and as they age they move up the fleet. Offer a good experience and you will get 'likes' or whatever - cheap, effective marketing.

Charter companies appear to ignore this. Most charters involve anchoring and surely it makes sense to make it as easy and as reliable as possible - then when the charter party goes home if there are horror stories its not about the nights at anchor.

A first up would be equipping the charter vessels with forgiving anchors, there are enough to choose from, Rocna, Supreme, Spade, Excel, Kobra and then a very short script on how to use them - its not rocket science - and modern anchors do set relatively easily (and reliably). Marking the chain would also help.

So stop whingeing about the charterers - how many who currently use a Rocna would happily revert to using a Delta, CQR or Britany?

Instead - Wonder why it is that charter companies seem to think they can ignore modern marketing techniques - of ensuring their customers leave with a smile on their face - vowing to return at the next opportunity.

Jonathan

 

[Sgeir]

Seems a little bit unfair to focus on charter yachts.

We watched some extraordinary anchoring recently in Puilldobhrain, a fairly tight anchorage with an average depth of perhaps 3-4 metres CD, where the owner put out 40m of chain]. He then, several times, not only reversed to ensure it was well dug in, but also forwards, presumably to ensure that it could safely manage a change of wind direction.

He probably knew what he was doing but having this boat careering about very close to us was a worry. My guess is that he'd a bad experience with a change of wind or tide. Fortunately the wind didn't change much overnight. They'd have collided with us if it had.

 

[RupertW]

What I find fascinating is that most business models would suggest ensuring customer satisfaction engendering repeat business. This is seen with cars, pull them in with a bottom end of the range and ensure they are happy and as they age they move up the fleet. Offer a good experience and you will get 'likes' or whatever - cheap, effective marketing.

Charter companies appear to ignore this. Most charters involve anchoring and surely it makes sense to make it as easy and as reliable as possible - then when the charter party goes home if there are horror stories its not about the nights at anchor.

A first up would be equipping the charter vessels with forgiving anchors, there are enough to choose from, Rocna, Supreme, Spade, Excel, Kobra and then a very short script on how to use them - its not rocket science - and modern anchors do set relatively easily (and reliably). Marking the chain would also help.

So stop whingeing about the charterers - how many who currently use a Rocna would happily revert to using a Delta, CQR or Britany?

Instead - Wonder why it is that charter companies seem to think they can ignore modern marketing techniques - of ensuring their customers leave with a smile on their face - vowing to return at the next opportunity.

Jonathan

Technique is far more important than anchor type. We spend most nights on the hook and my 15kg Delta has t dragged in 8 years once set. I do wish charter yachts had marked chains though - I’d hate to see a depth of say 6 metres and have no idea at all how much I’m putting out.

 

[[70521]]

Technique is far more important than anchor type. We spend most nights on the hook and my 15kg Delta has t dragged in 8 years once set. I do wish charter yachts had marked chains though - I’d hate to see a depth of say 6 metres and have no idea at all how much I’m putting out.

Why do you need chain marked? Flake it out and that will give you a rough measurement.

 

[RupertW]

Why do you need chain marked? Flake it out and that will give you a rough measurement.

It’s far more convenient with chain marked and as I approach an anchorage I often don’t know whether the space will be in a 3m depth or a 13m depth. But yes in extremis and ideally in a calm anchorage and daylight you could flake instead.

 

[Gwylan]

At the London boat show two or three years ago there was a very simple but effective demo on how to drop the hook and lay out the chain onto a sand bed. All indoors and very clear to see and understand. Anyone else remember seeing it?

Yes. And a lot of difference it made to the instant yacht master brigade!

 

[Neeves]

Technique is far more important than anchor type. We spend most nights on the hook and my 15kg Delta has t dragged in 8 years once set. /QUOTE]



I totally agree, and with a CQR, Bruce, Delta - technique is critical (and maybe so with a Britany, I've never used one) which is why they should not be on charter boats (as learning that technique takes practice). Modern anchors are so much more forgiving, which is why they should be on charter vessels - as they are less reliant (or not reliant at all) on technique.


Which charterer is going to flake out chain to define length - get real. Which owner is going to flake out chain to define length - when a bit of string, or bits of string, will suffice. And have you, seriously, ever tried to flake out chain through an electric windlass?

Jonathan

 

[RichardS]

And have you, seriously, ever tried to flake out chain through an electric windlass?

Jonathan

I was thinking exactly the same, Jonathan.

The only place we could flake out chain would be on our white trampoline .... and that sounds like a recipe for a maritime/marital disaster when the Bosun sees her sunbathing spot is covered with mud.

Richard

 

[Neeves]

I was thinking exactly the same, Jonathan.

The only place we could flake out chain would be on our white trampoline .... and that sounds like a recipe for a maritime/marital disaster when the Bosun sees her sunbathing spot is covered with mud.

Richard

You are lucky, at leat you can pull rank. I have to contend with the owner. she would question why there was mud on the chain in the first place and secondarily why it was decorating her foredeck (that I had been instructed to clean).

Any suggestion that mud was commonly used for cleansing skin - would be met with contempt.

Jonathan

 

[sailaboutvic]

I was thinking exactly the same, Jonathan.

The only place we could flake out chain would be on our white trampoline .... and that sounds like a recipe for a maritime/marital disaster when the Bosun sees her sunbathing spot is covered with mud.

Richard

We don't bother with markers or flaking the chain , we have a one meter bit of string and as the 10mm chain comes out Christine measure it one meter at a time , 40 mts take about 5 mins . So we start dropping the anchor some 20 mts before where we want it to set .
Can't understand why this way of anchoring asnt taken off , we seen to be the only ones useing this technique.

 

[photodog]

We don't bother with markers or flaking the chain , we have a one meter bit of string and as the 10mm chain comes out Christine measure it one meter at a time , 40 mts take about 5 mins . So we start dropping the anchor some 20 mts before where we want it to set .
Can't understand why this way of anchoring asnt taken off , we seen to be the only ones useing this technique.

I don’t understand why such accuracy is needed... I know how much chain is in the well... I know the distance from the windlass to the bow roller, so I can count out the length as it goes over by simply watching a link... and I also know how long it takes to drop a certain amount... so I can estimate just fine how much we have put down, even by just glancing in the locker...

Drop a bit more than the depth, click into reverse, lay out slowly until I’m comfortable all I need is out... give it some welly to straighten and bed. Job done. I don’t need to lay out exactly 32 meters in 6, I’m happy with around 3/4 of the pile up front.

My anchor is some knock up thing from Bavaria, and I’ve never dragged.

Making anchoring complex by introducing maths and the need to flake and count out exact numbers is counter productive... keep it simple, if you’ve got room lay out some more, dig it in. Job done.

 

[webcraft]

I have 33m of chain with 30m of Octoplait should it be necessary (so far only used when anchoring in 18m in Norway)

Marks at 10, 20 and 30m. Never seen the need for any more. My target where possible is to anchor in 2 or 3m CD and deploy 30m.

2m CD plus 1m from the bow roller plus 4m tide at HW equals 7m, so 30m is just over 4x depth - yet many people will come in to anchor at LW with a 2m keel offset on the echo sounder and religiously drop 4x the supposed depth.

At HW this is likely to give an actual scope of maybe less than 2-1.so it is no wonder they drag when the wind gets up a bit and the tide rises.

People who deploy less than 20m of chain in Puilladobhran (to use our local anchorage mentioned by Sgeir as an example) are IMO more of a menace than the space hoggers dropping 40m, especially the short-scopers are using 'traditional' pattern anchors.

I did recently deploy a mere 20m overnight in a forecast F6, but that was in 0.5m CD at neaps. And I have a Spade.

Deploy as much as you reasonably can - chain left in the locker is doing nothing. And test it realistically with the engine - tick over in astern might simulate a F3, give it some welly and treat yourself to a good night's sleep.

- W