Bad Petrol from Petrol Stations - Yeah Right

[JerryC]

Really, the RAC lifted you from Surrey to the Isle of Mull??? That is brilliant! When my Merc broke down in downtown Soton I waited over an hour to be dropped off at the marina then have car lifted to the main dealer in Eastleigh about 8 miles away. It's all outsourced to local tow companies apparently, and my call for help was misinterpreted so they thought I wanted a tow back to North Kent late at night, and there were no takers

 

[Assassin]

Well I do own a petrol station so have a little experience of this. We are a Shell retailer and we do indeed supply McLaren... & fortunately we also supply the general public quite a bit of fuel as we are located on the A320 between J11 M25 and Woking... we sell circa 9m litres of fuel a year, we have around 1200 motorists visit our site every day. So turnover is important, two reasons, firstly if you don't turn over a lot of fuel you make no money and may as well pack up, there isn't big margins in selling fuel! and secondly for steady deliveries and fresh fuel.

The most common cause for issues in fuel from garages is lack of proceedures and maintenance. So issues arise for a number of reasons;

When tanks are allowed to run low. We have a minimum limit of 2000 liters per tank, when it gets down to that level we shut the tank down, very rarely happens as we get one of two fuel deliveries everyday (and we have 6 tanks). Like any tank the bottom dregs will contain any contaminates which may be in the tank. Have a poorly run site and the operators will not be monitoring this and allow pumps to draw from the bottom of the tank.

We also have regular filter changes on all our fuel pumps, even more so when winter diesel comes out (which will be in the next week or so). Costs money but for us we don't want to be serving our customers fuel with any particles.. again a poorly operated site will not want to be undertaking this routine maintenance.

We also subscribe to off site fuel monitoring so we know precisely the quantities of fuel delivered by each individual pump from each tank, and run back, and if any pump is delivering to little or too much fuel and requires calibration.

Also where we get our fuel makes a difference, we used to get deliveries from Coryton and it was delivered hot, and this caused two issues, firstly shrinkage that effected our margins and secondly condensation which produced water. Depending where fuel stations get their fuel from may also give rise to more issues, and there's not a lot you can do about that..

So some talk of old tanks.. well the legistlation controlling the storage of fuel is pretty rigorous, tanks after a certain age can be rejuvenated with a few processes, basically a relining process or they can be replaced, that costs a lot of money. We have 6 tanks, some newer than others, two are being relined next year as they reach an age where it is required to retain our licence to store fuel. With 4 grades of fuel every site has multiple tanks and its one of the most expensive aspects of maintenance.

All these practises we put in place as that's how you need to operate a business and sleep well at night, we are one of the largest privately owned and operated Shell retailers in the UK and we know that many sites are not operated in the same way.

However the fact is you gotta be pretty unlucky to get a tank of "Bad fuel"... So how or why are these issues being reported and gain weight... Well one way is by pride; probably once a month we get a customer complaining they had bad fuel, that their car has broken down due to the fuel we supplied, or its running very badly.. and these people are often very cross. So on every occasion we check back on CCTV or via payment method and receipts and 100% of the time we see that they have actually miss fuelled... red faces and apologies all round... but when that customer chats to his friends who are keen for an update on what happened… do they admit it was their own fault, or do they maintain that they got some "bad fuel"....

Totally agree, we had several sites and we bought an old site due to its location and it was cheaper to demolish the site and start again, this had the older open breathers and floating pick up's in the tanks, we had the option of relining but the old steel tanks were so rotten that they were so thin in places that it wasn't viable as they were less than 2mm in places, and the tank readers were notoriously inaccurate and the silt build up confused them regularly, they didn't have the tank filters as they were too old.

Digging the site out was much cheaper as all we had was a big hole where the new tanks were to sit, it reduced the installation costs by about 60% as it was totally accessible and they sould set the bases and plinths in one go and simply lift the new tanks in and I bit the bullet and went composite as they got an unlimited 30 year guarantee, they had the valved breathers and inflow and outflow filters and this reduced water ingress massively and the tanks had the fixed pick up instead of the floating ones and both the inflow and outflow filters were monitored and readily accessible.

These pumps were a mix of Veeder and Gilbarco units and a deal was struck with Gilbarco and they provided new pumps with a C&M deal for 5 years and these pumps came with the then new tri-stage filtration units in the base of the pumps and they came bi-annually and replaced them and calibrated the pumps as they had their own contractors to do this who came with the Gilbarco guys, Gilbarco did the pump islands as well. Our interceptors were shot and these were replaced. This made maintaining everything much easier and our inflow and outflow filters were cleaned quarterly and were almost spotless as the new tanks had the silt traps in them which were awesome in stopping anything and containing it in the sump.

We had 8 tanks on that site and our best friend was our fire officer who was head of the local fire service and visited site every day during the works and ruled everything with a rod of iron and didn't let them take any short cuts, it was perfect or done again, and he was a godsend for us.

 

[Firefly625]

Totally agree, we had several sites and we bought an old site due to its location and it was cheaper to demolish the site and start again, this had the older open breathers and floating pick up's in the tanks, we had the option of relining but the old steel tanks were so rotten that they were so thin in places that it wasn't viable as they were less than 2mm in places, and the tank readers were notoriously inaccurate and the silt build up confused them regularly, they didn't have the tank filters as they were too old.

Digging the site out was much cheaper as all we had was a big hole where the new tanks were to sit, it reduced the installation costs by about 60% as it was totally accessible and they sould set the bases and plinths in one go and simply lift the new tanks in and I bit the bullet and went composite as they got an unlimited 30 year guarantee, they had the valved breathers and inflow and outflow filters and this reduced water ingress massively and the tanks had the fixed pick up instead of the floating ones and both the inflow and outflow filters were monitored and readily accessible.

These pumps were a mix of Veeder and Gilbarco units and a deal was struck with Gilbarco and they provided new pumps with a C&M deal for 5 years and these pumps came with the then new tri-stage filtration units in the base of the pumps and they came bi-annually and replaced them and calibrated the pumps as they had their own contractors to do this who came with the Gilbarco guys, Gilbarco did the pump islands as well. Our interceptors were shot and these were replaced. This made maintaining everything much easier and our inflow and outflow filters were cleaned quarterly and were almost spotless as the new tanks had the silt traps in them which were awesome in stopping anything and containing it in the sump.

We had 8 tanks on that site and our best friend was our fire officer who was head of the local fire service and visited site every day during the works and ruled everything with a rod of iron and didn't let them take any short cuts, it was perfect or done again, and he was a godsend for us.

Very interesting. For us pulling tanks out the ground and replacing has a knock on effect to our core business of being a Honda dealer... so this relining process that has become possible over the last decade will save us a shut down not only of our fuel site, but also the removal of a large section of our used car display, hence our keenness to go that route!

 

[Portofino]

@Firefly .
Is there any mileage ( scuse the pun not intended) in the Shell optimax and Ferrari link ?
Indeed AN Other high performance car like McClarens ?

They do run better and a conversation with other owners and franchised dealers seem to suggest so .

Just folks say Tesco fuel is as good as the 98 shell optimax .

 

[Firefly625]

@Firefly .
Is there any mileage ( scuse the pun not intended) in the Shell optimax and Ferrari link ?
Indeed AN Other high performance car like McClarens ?

They do run better and a conversation with other owners and franchised dealers seem to suggest so .

Just folks say Tesco fuel is as good as the 98 shell optimax .

@Portofino
Well the difference between Tesco performance fuel and Shell Optimax (Now V-Power) is probably incredibly marginal for us mortals to notice a difference... although if you speak to the guys at Shell they would probably have a fit if they read this.. .

For starters, and in fairness to Shell V-Power it is 99 octane rather than Tesco premium which is 98.. plus Shell are VERY proud of the various additives V-Power incorporates to improve performance, reduce friction and actually reduce deposit build up.

In my view every day cars don't really benefit from running it unless they are performance cars... if a car is designed to run on 95octane run it on 95 octane. Shell argue those benefits have an effect on all cars and they do suggest on more mundane cars that they should have a tank of V-Power every 3rd or 4th tank full which helps keep the engine in better condition.

FWIW I have a Rolls Royce that I do run on V-Power and in all honestly I'm sure it runs better with it..

 

[Bigplumbs]

I rather think normal mortals just fill up when they are getting near empty and chose by price

 

[Firefly625]

I rather think normal mortals just fill up when they are getting near empty and chose by price

absolutely. I fact many don't even look at price... but will chose cheapest grade.

But if you do own a car that is a bit special and are in any way interested in its general performance & long term heath then a major factor is what you are running it on, hence my answer to a genuine question.

 

[benjenbav]

absolutely. I fact many don't even look at price... but will chose cheapest grade.

But if you do own a car that is a bit special and are in any way interested in its general performance & long term heath then a major factor is what you are running it on, hence my answer to a genuine question.

As Dennis has alluded to my not reading the question (a failing also remarked upon by my A-Level examiners many years ago) I am proud to say that I open the fuel door of the car I'm driving and refuel with the fuel recommended on the yellow label inside. So, both current porkers say 98: that's what I buy. Merc says 95: that's what I buy. Peugeot...Guess what?... :encouragement:

 

[Firefly625]

As Dennis has alluded to my not reading the question (a failing also remarked upon by my A-Level examiners many years ago) I am proud to say that I open the fuel door of the car I'm driving and refuel with the fuel recommended on the yellow label inside. So, both current porkers say 98: that's what I buy. Merc says 95: that's what I buy. Peugeot...Guess what?... :encouragement:

Full marks for you then Martin! ;-)

 

[Ian h]

@Firefly .
Is there any mileage ( scuse the pun not intended) in the Shell optimax and Ferrari link ?
Indeed AN Other high performance car like McClarens ?

They do run better and a conversation with other owners and franchised dealers seem to suggest so .

Just folks say Tesco fuel is as good as the 98 shell optimax .

My son has a 2005 Honda Civic Type R EP3 and have to say that this runs much better on higher octane fuel . He usually fills up with Tesco finest will point him towards the Shell now. running on 95 it just does not run well at all

 

[Anders_P42]

I've got a couple of high performance cars, which have been remapped (one 467bhp, the other 852bhp). I think most of the mappers I've spoken with or used over the years prefer Vpower. I did try Tesco momentum for a few tanks, but they feel smoother on Vpower so stuck with that.

 

[MrB]

I've got a couple of high performance cars, which have been remapped (one 467bhp, the other 852bhp). I think most of the mappers I've spoken with or used over the years prefer Vpower. I did try Tesco momentum for a few tanks, but they feel smoother on Vpower so stuck with that.

Ok I'll bite. Do you have a Hennessey tuned car or a Koenigsegg * The "I'll bite" is in no way I disbelieve you, just want to know about the cars being a petrol head*

 

[Assassin]

Very interesting. For us pulling tanks out the ground and replacing has a knock on effect to our core business of being a Honda dealer... so this relining process that has become possible over the last decade will save us a shut down not only of our fuel site, but also the removal of a large section of our used car display, hence our keenness to go that route!

I understand your reasoning and the fact this is possible in your situation and is the better option for you, less work, cheaper, less disruption, and preventing a knock on affect to your other business/s and your tanks are in a suitably good condition for a relining option, in my case it wasn't viable so I had to bite the bullet and spend the money.

For me the upgrade was necessary and the extra additions such as inflow and outflow filtering became a necessity and replacing the pumps with Gilbarco units and their triple stage filtration was economically viable due to the deal we struck and finding the interceptors in such a poor state meant it was worthwhile replacing them at the same time due to the regulations at that time, and subsequent legislation and putting in an extra dedicated HGV pump was a significant benefit.

We had 7 petrol stations in less than 1 mile so considerable competition, when we sold out to BP this number had been reduced to two petrol stations, ours and another site which had closed and was in negotiations with Asda to buy their site, they subsequently sold their site to Asda and they demolished it and began again; now there is only our old site and an Asda site which is more of a one stop shop for basics and booze with petrol as another side to their core business.

Good luck with it all and I hope your relining goes well.

 

[Firefly625]

My son has a 2005 Honda Civic Type R EP3 and have to say that this runs much better on higher octane fuel . He usually fills up with Tesco finest will point him towards the Shell now. running on 95 it just does not run well at all

indeed it will. Think they recommend in the handbook. two of my bothers have s2000's as a bit of fun, they need 98 octane minimum otherwise they are really quite lumpy at low speed, but 12 year old 2.0 4 cylinder naturally asperated engines producing 240bhp.. you got to feed it the right stuff!
Back in the day (eek 2001..) when they were new I ran an Accord Type-R for a year, still one of my favourite cars and the way the Vtec switched over at 5500rpm was hilarious... just a switch.

 

[Firefly625]

I understand your reasoning and the fact this is possible in your situation and is the better option for you, less work, cheaper, less disruption, and preventing a knock on affect to your other business/s and your tanks are in a suitably good condition for a relining option, in my case it wasn't viable so I had to bite the bullet and spend the money.

For me the upgrade was necessary and the extra additions such as inflow and outflow filtering became a necessity and replacing the pumps with Gilbarco units and their triple stage filtration was economically viable due to the deal we struck and finding the interceptors in such a poor state meant it was worthwhile replacing them at the same time due to the regulations at that time, and subsequent legislation and putting in an extra dedicated HGV pump was a significant benefit.

We had 7 petrol stations in less than 1 mile so considerable competition, when we sold out to BP this number had been reduced to two petrol stations, ours and another site which had closed and was in negotiations with Asda to buy their site, they subsequently sold their site to Asda and they demolished it and began again; now there is only our old site and an Asda site which is more of a one stop shop for basics and booze with petrol as another side to their core business.

Good luck with it all and I hope your relining goes well.

yes fuel stations falling by the wayside over the last 20 years very common., now most that have survived probably have some future, we are blessed with a great location that is our saving.

 

[Firefly625]

Ok I'll bite. Do you have a Hennessey tuned car or a Koenigsegg * The "I'll bite" is in no way I disbelieve you, just want to know about the cars being a petrol head*

I'm going to guess, the one with 852bhp is a Nissan?

the one with 467.... a porka… or BMW

 

[benjenbav]

I'm going to guess, the one with 852bhp is a Nissan?

the one with 467.... a porka… or BMW

I drove a Nissan GTR with a Litchfield Stage 1 (600bhp) recently. That was quick. The owner has a Merc A43 running on rocket fuel** which he reckons is quicker. Not for long I'd wager.


**Pedantry Corner: it isn't actually running on rocket fuel but the complexity of the chipping and tuning is beyond me. Let's just say it's not at all stock. :encouragement:

 

[youngkath]

I have recently read a few posts where people have suggested that their boat engines have stopped/broken down or similar because of 'bad' Petrol from 'road' filling stations.

Does anyone actually believe this. I think it is one of those urban myths and does not happen. I feel other issues are blamed on 'that petrol'

Interested in the views that might follow

Hi folks,

Interested to find this thread today...!

I left Kefalonia last week and refuelled 99L + x2 20L Jerry cans. I then sailed / motorsailed to Sicily (no wind!). Halfway through the passage my engine stopped. I added more fuel, I bled the system, checked the filters, trying decompression starting, checked everything I could... nothing.

After sailing into Siracusa (at night!).. I had a mechanic help the next day. He went through all the usual checks... suspecting at first the fuel pump. However, he tracked the problem to the fuel injectors (all three of them)... and found there to be rubber in the fuel, which under high temperatures clogged the system (excuse my non technical language I am still learning!)... he said he had never seen anything like it...! Only on one other boat, who had come from Zákinthos a few weeks ago.. who had to replace all three!!

Fortunately for me... he was able to (on his last try..!) put WD40 through all three and get it going... unbelievable!

Hope this helps some people... was quite an ordeal for me!

Kath

 

[Firefly625]

I drove a Nissan GTR with a Litchfield Stage 1 (600bhp) recently. That was quick. The owner has a Merc A43 running on rocket fuel** which he reckons is quicker. Not for long I'd wager.


**Pedantry Corner: it isn't actually running on rocket fuel but the complexity of the chipping and tuning is beyond me. Let's just say it's not at all stock. :encouragement:

I knew a chap that used to mix his own fuel, ethanol blended, for some highly chipped GTR...

 

[Anders_P42]

Ok I'll bite. Do you have a Hennessey tuned car or a Koenigsegg * The "I'll bite" is in no way I disbelieve you, just want to know about the cars being a petrol head*

Sorry for thread drift, but someone asked

Nissan GTR, bought new in 2011 and been an on-going project in a few stages - stock 523bhp then 620, 650 and then 852bhp (crank power not at wheels).

Tuned by Litchfield, it has built engine (rods and pistons but stock heads), Litchfield turbo kit with EFR 6758 turbos. The turbo kit is a work of art IMO. Here's some info.

Manifold Flyer PDF

The trace on dyno at bottom is a stock car, so the turbo kit spools better than stock but creates great power and torque across the rev range. Holy grail with turbo upgrades.

160bhp at 2K
360bhp at 3K
480bhp at 4K
600bhp at 5K (hardly breaking a sweat)

And the torque, 600lbft from 3000rpm to redline at 7400rpm. Drive so smoothly, but relentlessly quick.

The other car is a 2004 Subaru with a 2.1 stroker kit. Just had that remapped after engine rebuild. Stock engine lasted 14 years and 98K running 430bhp, not too shabby when stock motor was 260bhp. The 2 litre motor was a gem, plenty running 500bhp on stock motors expecting them to blow up and then last for years.

Only had mine rebuilt because head gasket went earlier this year and wasn't worth forking out for heads to be skimmed when the rest of engine was 98K and 14 years old. Hoping I'll get another 98K and 14 years out of it now