jimmy_the_builder
Well-Known Member
Yep, Hempel Tiger Extra I think. M77 is also available in navy blue.
Back to the UK for a winter refit
- Thread starter jimmy_the_builder
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Yep, Hempel Tiger Extra I think. M77 is also available in navy blue.
petem
Well-Known Member
Interesting. I guess the absolute worst that can happen with lots of use is that mid season you might have to slap a bit more paint on a high wear areas. Not something the marketing people would accept hence the recommendation for a hard AF I suppose. But slapping a bit more on mid season is surely no bid deal and preferable to the hard AF build up it appears?
Illusion
Well-Known Member
Yes I thought that, we have the International Navy Blue on the boat now (Uni Pro), not sure how it's really performed until we lift next month. Trouble is although it goes on quite dark, it lightens in the water and I've hated it all year as its too light blue for my liking!
jimmy_the_builder
Well-Known Member
jfm
Well-Known Member
No doubt they have access to the toxic gloop that ships use, but it was a waste of money because rubbing your boat on a sand bank cleans the bottom for free
MYAG
Well-Known Member
Yep you could do that. IIRC the recommended thickness is 150 micron which is 2-3 coats with a roller for me. I put on 5 coats, around 250 micron plus a bit more on the pressure points. Lasts throughout the season and it comes out like new. If Vega is going with 77, that's what I would do.
rafiki_
Well-Known Member
Elessar
Well-Known Member
Ok, to jimmy and jfm.
I am no longer involved in ARC. But paul the GRP man may be able to sort something for you. Now i'm nothing to do with it I havent a competitor to criticise, so i can be honest!
I think symblasts system is way too harsh. And that the price you have been quoted is too expensive.
They can get good results if paul himself does the work, but his machine is so powerful that i simply wouldnt let any of his staff do it.
Blasting if done well is just a mild abrade but any abrade removes a bit of surface. And the "if done well" bit is down to the operator. An abrade can expose pin holes, which always were there as little air bubbles just under the surface. I would rather have them exposed myself. Fairline used to be particularly bad for these bubbles but it varies from boat to boat. You wont be blasting anywhere near mat. Just fill the bubbles with epoxy filler. This is unrelated to my next statement.
Once you have bare gel, its daft not to epoxy it. Epoxy is essentially waterproof but gelcoat is not.
What you do over the top then is up to you.
I am a cppercoat fan because it is fit and forget, and it squeezes a bit of extra speed/economy out of the boat too. The key every year mentioned by jfm is a myth. In fact it is a bad thing to do as it is cuprous oxide that is the biocide, not copper, so you are making the antifouling properties worse by following this mythical advice. You just jetwash or scrub in the water.
JFM is right that you may get more slime with coppercoat compared with the best traditional stuff if it is still fresh, but the infinate scrubability of coppercoat negates that IMO. It saves money too as some lifts can become lift and holds instead of lift and block offs. Even with outdrives it doesnt take long to change anodes and spray on some trilux, so you just come out properly for a full service.
There is no problem with coppercoat and outdrives. I would coppercoat the drives themselves if it was a boat i intended to keep but i would fear resale value if you do this. I wouldnt fear corrosion though, just the perception of corrosion. Copper in ordinary antifoul is bad because its porous but coppercoat is not. So you have to use trilux which is copper free. Or wee on the outdrive which is about as effective as trilux.....
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benjenbav
Well-Known Member
Just the thing!Could be the ideal pulpit accessory for the Hamble scramble... image: http://www.ybw.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.png
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Hurricane
Well-Known Member
A few years ago, I took Elassar's advice and I don't regret it.
He quoted to do the work but the logistics of getting his equipment and staff to SC were difficult so we appointed the Spanish Coppercoat distributor.
Elessar's advice to use a "slurry" blasting process must have saved me a load of heartache.
I have since seen boats sandblasted and IMO all of them have been damaged by the process.
The wet "slurry" process is amazing - it removes the old antifoul only - nothing else - even plastic fittings left on the boat are un-damaged by the process.
Sand blasting, on the other hand is, IMO far too destructive.
Once the old A/F has been removed, the gelcoat surface has a "dull" texture to it and, as Elessar says, it would be silly not to put a layer or two of epoxy before retreating with A/F.
There are osmosis treatments (Gelshield etc) that might be as good as plain epoxy.
My view is that it is a "no brainer" - once you have stripped the old A/F off you should apply Coppercoat.
It isn't quite as good as A/F but taking everything into consideration it out strips A/F - IMHO
And we berth in one of the most aggressive marinas for growth so we put Coppercoat through the ultimate test.
We don't regret applying it and my thanks to Elessar for his excellent advice a few years ago when we removed the old A/F.
He quoted to do the work but the logistics of getting his equipment and staff to SC were difficult so we appointed the Spanish Coppercoat distributor.
Elessar's advice to use a "slurry" blasting process must have saved me a load of heartache.
I have since seen boats sandblasted and IMO all of them have been damaged by the process.
The wet "slurry" process is amazing - it removes the old antifoul only - nothing else - even plastic fittings left on the boat are un-damaged by the process.
Sand blasting, on the other hand is, IMO far too destructive.
Once the old A/F has been removed, the gelcoat surface has a "dull" texture to it and, as Elessar says, it would be silly not to put a layer or two of epoxy before retreating with A/F.
There are osmosis treatments (Gelshield etc) that might be as good as plain epoxy.
My view is that it is a "no brainer" - once you have stripped the old A/F off you should apply Coppercoat.
It isn't quite as good as A/F but taking everything into consideration it out strips A/F - IMHO
And we berth in one of the most aggressive marinas for growth so we put Coppercoat through the ultimate test.
We don't regret applying it and my thanks to Elessar for his excellent advice a few years ago when we removed the old A/F.
Elessar
Well-Known Member
hey thank you
on the subject of gelshield - it is a range of products.
gelshield 200 is a solvented epoxy for osmosis protection. c 110 micron wet film thickness and c 50 dry. They recommend 6 coats alternating colours, green grey so you can see where you've been easily. 3 coats is plenty actually.
Easy to apply DIY, an infinite overcoating window but you MUST allow at least a week after doing this before coppercoating or you will get solvent entrapment.
gelshield plus is a solvent free epoxy for osmosis repair, ie to replace rather than overcoat gelcoat. c 150 micron wet film thickness and by definition the dry film is the same. (should be cured film thickness i guess!)
You can use it as a protection, but it's harder to get a good finish and there are lots of pitfalls with the possibility of amine blush, and only a 24 hr overcoat window. It is the best solution for WAFIs keels though. And the only way you can put coppercoat on the day after epoxying.
vas
Well-Known Member
J,
I'd like to add my .02euro (now that I still can!) from my experience stripping MiToS hull.
I've used a 1800W heatgun with the flatish outlet attachment and a 4inch scrapper.
Would go over an area (heatgun VERY CLOSE as in 2-3inches off the hull surface) slightly moving the gun in circles over a 10X10cm area until the antifoul layers bubbled and disconnected from the hull and move around till an area of 10x40cm was done. Then the scrapper would go under it and peel it off like butter.
It's a matter of getting your timing, heat, force right, but it would be worth trying it out.
For VEGA I recon you need 6-7 days to clean it off. Mask, googles AND thickish gloves almost necessary (don't breath the fumes!) but the advantage is that you don't end up with tons of dust, just solid flakes you can mob and dispose easily at the end of the day
It's labour intensive, but it's cheap labour, not specialized skilled technicians. I bet you could get housing subcontractors staff easily up to speed if you try.
Don't use sander, not much point (as you probably figured out!) it blocks in seconds even if you go for 24 and 40grit on 125dia orbital sanders (which anyway would be a hazard once the a/f is off as it would score the gel).
Definitely use one or two coats of epoxy as a primer, then eversoslightly sand (if you brush/roller apply) to key in, wash and apply your antifoul. To avoid the sanding between coats, apply second coat when first is still drying (touch dry). DONT do the whole hull in one go, unless you got company, hard and long day, pretty much impossible!
Personally, I'd definitely go for coppercoat since you're going through all the hassle.
cheers
V.
I'd like to add my .02euro (now that I still can!) from my experience stripping MiToS hull.
I've used a 1800W heatgun with the flatish outlet attachment and a 4inch scrapper.
Would go over an area (heatgun VERY CLOSE as in 2-3inches off the hull surface) slightly moving the gun in circles over a 10X10cm area until the antifoul layers bubbled and disconnected from the hull and move around till an area of 10x40cm was done. Then the scrapper would go under it and peel it off like butter.
It's a matter of getting your timing, heat, force right, but it would be worth trying it out.
For VEGA I recon you need 6-7 days to clean it off. Mask, googles AND thickish gloves almost necessary (don't breath the fumes!) but the advantage is that you don't end up with tons of dust, just solid flakes you can mob and dispose easily at the end of the day
It's labour intensive, but it's cheap labour, not specialized skilled technicians. I bet you could get housing subcontractors staff easily up to speed if you try.
Don't use sander, not much point (as you probably figured out!) it blocks in seconds even if you go for 24 and 40grit on 125dia orbital sanders (which anyway would be a hazard once the a/f is off as it would score the gel).
Definitely use one or two coats of epoxy as a primer, then eversoslightly sand (if you brush/roller apply) to key in, wash and apply your antifoul. To avoid the sanding between coats, apply second coat when first is still drying (touch dry). DONT do the whole hull in one go, unless you got company, hard and long day, pretty much impossible!
Personally, I'd definitely go for coppercoat since you're going through all the hassle.
cheers
V.
Elessar
Well-Known Member
J,
I'd like to add my .02euro (now that I still can!) from my experience stripping MiToS hull.
I've used a 1800W heatgun with the flatish outlet attachment and a 4inch scrapper.
Would go over an area (heatgun VERY CLOSE as in 2-3inches off the hull surface) slightly moving the gun in circles over a 10X10cm area until the antifoul layers bubbled and disconnected from the hull and move around till an area of 10x40cm was done. Then the scrapper would go under it and peel it off like butter.
It's a matter of getting your timing, heat, force right, but it would be worth trying it out.
For VEGA I recon you need 6-7 days to clean it off. Mask, googles AND thickish gloves almost necessary (don't breath the fumes!) but the advantage is that you don't end up with tons of dust, just solid flakes you can mob and dispose easily at the end of the day
It's labour intensive, but it's cheap labour, not specialized skilled technicians. I bet you could get housing subcontractors staff easily up to speed if you try.
Don't use sander, not much point (as you probably figured out!) it blocks in seconds even if you go for 24 and 40grit on 125dia orbital sanders (which anyway would be a hazard once the a/f is off as it would score the gel).
Definitely use one or two coats of epoxy as a primer, then eversoslightly sand (if you brush/roller apply) to key in, wash and apply your antifoul. To avoid the sanding between coats, apply second coat when first is still drying (touch dry). DONT do the whole hull in one go, unless you got company, hard and long day, pretty much impossible!
Personally, I'd definitely go for coppercoat since you're going through all the hassle.
cheers
V.
You don't need to sand solvented epoxy to key. You don't need to sand solvent free if over coated within 24 hours. If more than 24 hours you need to thoroughly (not lightly) sand with 100 grit. The touch dry rule applies only to solvent free, though it is actually fine when it feels dry if within 24 hrs. With solvented break between coats are an advantage to ensure all the avent is out.
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petem
Well-Known Member
It's a shame they don't do Coppercoat in other colours
Hurricane
Well-Known Member
It's a shame they don't do Coppercoat in other colours
If you get the waterline right, it doesn't look that bad.
jimmy_the_builder
Well-Known Member
The quote for blast cleaning, sanding, and four coats of coppercoat is £2800+vat.
Elessar
Well-Known Member
It's a shame they don't do Coppercoat in other colours
not possible. too much copper. gotta be verdigris.
you can always trilux the top 6" over the coppercoat.
but do that after living with verdigris for a year.
no one adds the paint........
Portofino
Well-Known Member
Balanced with a can of AF £200 to 300 ish/ pa .
Also lifting the boat once -so you can see and change anodes inc the BT and prep /service drives ,which periodically will need more time out than an "in the slings " ,assuming you do the yard work yourself?
This may include other periodic jobs negating agian an "in the slings " allegded saving on blocking off for a week ?
jimmy_the_builder
Well-Known Member
I think the argument for coppercoat is less compelling with outdrive boats, because you want to be lifting them once a year anyway, for drive servicing.
Elessar
Well-Known Member
12 litres? did they say?
