AWB's: how much of a compromise

[Bobc]

I think that all boats are a compromise and a balance anyway.

What I would look for in a cruising boat is:-
- a reasonable turn of speed, but at the same time feeling safe and in-control
- good sea-kindly shape, but also still easy to manouver in marinas
- Nice comfortable accommodation when parked-up, but at the same time some good sea berths and handholds
- Big enough to be comfortable, take a blow, and get me there in reasonable time, but not so big that it becomes un-managable
- etc.

So you end-up with a moderate hull shape with a moderate fin keel, 40-50ft long, aft cockpit with a sprayhood and bimini. I wonder what that could be...

 

[dslittle]

You never see sales blurb from a modern boat builder saying this boat is designed for an Atlantic circuit. It's more about how good it is for entertaining in the marina.

Describe an Atlantic Circuit.

If you are sailing across for three weeks and then straight back for three weeks you might look for a different boat to someone who sails across for three weeks, spends two years in the Caribbean and then - just maybe - sails back for three weeks.

 

[geem]

Describe an Atlantic Circuit.

If you are sailing across for three weeks and then straight back for three weeks you might look for a different boat to someone who sails across for three weeks, spends two years in the Caribbean and then - just maybe - sails back for three weeks.

If you are sailing back in three weeks you are doing very well. The return trip is unlikely to be the milk run that the trip over usually provides. I am assuming you haven't done the return trip yet?

 

[Koeketiene]

Oyster 545/Discovery 55 Mk2 possibly?

Nah, a Kalik 44 :encouragement:

 

[dslittle]

If you are sailing back in three weeks you are doing very well. The return trip is unlikely to be the milk run that the trip over usually provides. I am assuming you haven't done the return trip yet?

You are right - only sailed one way BUT I was commening on the relative comfort levels required over two very different timescales. As long as the boat is safe (and as others have said they generally are), the vast majority of time spent in boat will/should be relaxing in the sun...

That being said, there are always boats for sale on the other side of the pond that are not coming back!!!

 

[geem]

You are right - only sailed one way BUT I was commening on the relative comfort levels required over two very different timescales. As long as the boat is safe (and as others have said they generally are), the vast majority of time spent in boat will/should be relaxing in the sun...

That being said, there are always boats for sale on the other side of the pond that are not coming back!!!

your right. Many ship them back. it would be interested to ask those that have made the return trip, would they do it again in the same boat? I wouldn't based off my last experience, hence the boat I have now. Don't get me wrong, My boat isn't some battleship design for nothing but bashing to windward. Its centre cockpit as I think it offers better shelter when the weather turns nasty but its a great boat for the Caribbean as well. it has lots of ventilation and the smaller windows keep the sun from down below. Pilot house yachts are not at their best in hot climates but very suited to UK climate.
the cockpit works well for eating in. We rarely eat down below in the Caribbean. Why would you if you can sit in a great climate outside with a great view all around you. The flush decks give lots of space for kayaks, paddleboards and a rib. My motto is `he who dies with the most toys wins`

 

[Birdseye]

There has been some comment, as part of numerous threads, about the compromises forced upon AWB manufacturers by market forces, to favour accommodation over sailing ability; boats designed for Med island hopping rather than circumnavigation. And that outside of the BenJenBav brigade needs must one go to the likes of Arcona, Elan etc for speed with style, or Pogo and RM for speed and perhaps without the 'comfort' of the others.

On the other hand, BenJenBav's are often praised for their fine manufacturing tolerances, as a side effect of mass-production, often leading to the idea of enhanced reliability. Furthermore, there have been anecdotal reports of BenJenBavs at least doing the ARC, if not more.

So, what is the consensus (I know this will be like herding cats) - how much of a compromise do BenJenBavs have to make to the detriment of 'sea-keeping abilities'

Tranona is wrong when he says there is little compromise. All boats are a compromise between conflicting requirements. What was it that one famous designer said - something along the lines of " you cant have a fast cheap big boat. You can have two of those three but never all three together". That should be no surprise anyway - there is no such thing as a perfect car for every possible use and boats are no different.

I dont own a BenJenBav unlike Tranona, who is just a bit partisan . But I would happily sail in a Bav confident that it was reasonably well built and certainly suitable for the sort of sailing I do. I would not expect joinery of Swedish or Northshore standard but then I would not have paid their prices. But my engine, much of my deck gear, my mast etc would all be the same as they would on a Malo. Again going back to the car analogy, there really is very little mechanical difference between Mercedes and Ford but there is quite a bit of cosmetic difference, a bit of build quality difference ( but likely not a lot) and a pride of ownership difference. There is just no way that your 36ft Bav gets the same attention on the pontoon as a 36 ft Swan would do.

Safety wise its a different issue. Size matters as much as anything else according to the US coastguard. I would be happier in a bad storm in a 50ft Bav than I would in a 36ft HR costing much the same new.

In short there is no simple answer to your question. Pick the boat which best fits your real needs. Dont pick something for the southern ocean when you are going to just potter Poole harbour.

P.S. There is one issue where the compromise can be more obvious and that is in the area of sailing performance and pleasure. But then a Benny First will usually give far more fine sailing performance than most non AWBs and certainly far better than its caravan sister the Oceanis or than an old Nic 32 or Contessa.

 

[ip485]

at one end there are nostalgic if dated designs like island Packets

Steady

Seriously, and I declare I am biased, but how often is this heard. Of course, I do understand the use of the word "dated", but in fact dated as it is, brought up to date with a modern underwater lines. The discussion between long and fin keel is well worn, and "my" wetted surface is undoubtedly greater than that of a fin keeler. However, compared with most Beneteaus of similiar size (granted with the staystail up) in anything over a F3 I am as quick on all points, and will be consistantly quicker boat for boat as the wind increases with a great deal less stress. OK, as things go, its a big boat, with all the passage time advantages of size but as a long distance cruising machine if you are happy with something of 50 foot all of a sudden I think these designs come in to there own.

In the middle of oceans there is also something comforting about a long fully encapsulated keel and the space the bilges give to fit in 300 gallons of diesel and the same amount of water isnt half useful whatever you are sailing when the wind drops. You will be surprised in the Med and often on milk run passages how often the motor is the preferred means of propulsion!

 

[dom]

Seriously, and I declare I am biased, but how often is this heard. Of course, I do understand the use of the word "dated", but in fact dated as it is, brought up to date with a modern underwater lines. The discussion between long and fin keel is well worn, and "my" wetted surface is undoubtedly greater than that of a fin keeler. However, compared with most Beneteaus of similiar size (granted with the staystail up) in anything over a F3 I am as quick on all points, and will be consistantly quicker boat for boat as the wind increases with a great deal less stress. OK, as things go, its a big boat, with all the passage time advantages of size....!

Nostalgic wasn't meant as an insult. I knocked my old house down and rebuilt it. The planners insisted on neo-Georgian and I now have beautifully hand crafted wooden sash windows and I feel at home with them having grown up in that type of house. But they'll never be as efficient as modern production windows, and neither will an IP keep up with a modern design, even as the wind rises. At the end of the day all boats are compromises between design, feel, nostalgia, function, efficiency, money and so on. There is no "best", just different and the boats different people love and the boat that set them free might be a superyacht, they might be Rambler or Comanche and they might be an IP, a Beneteau or a Centuar ...all are compromises and one might be wise to recognise that.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Nostalgic wasn't meant as an insult. I knocked my old house down and rebuilt it. The planners insisted on neo-Georgian and I now have beautifully hand crafted wooden sash windows and I feel at home with them having grown up in that type of house. But they'll never be as efficient as modern production windows, and neither will an IP keep up with a modern design, even as the wind rises.

Also, they're pink. Blergh.

 

[Tranona]

One thing that has struck me in this thread is that "compromise" seems to be seen as negative, or at best sub optimal.

Surely it is positive, and what matters is the compromise (that is the resolution of conflicting requirements) results in something that meets a need. That is how you make your choice - identify the blend of characteristics that most closely meet what you are looking for. With a bit of luck you might get close to your ideal. In fact if you don't then you are probably making a mistake.

 

[Mrnotming]

Well our AWB resembled a Moody 34.6 except it was priced in € .
We did not really own it until,
1) it fell off two waves in the Celtic sea and ended up on its side,10 seconds later it was up and sailing again.
2) the deep lead keel remains attached to this day,despite my suspicions that they did'nt have a clue how to make proper floors!
Just lately of course has to be added the fun of replacing all the seacocks and flanged thru hulls.
Otherwise it's known as the 3 bedroom boat, to distinguish it from slow furniture showroom type northern built yachts.
So the slapped on furniture must weigh less or something,as the boat goes like the clappers just a little off 30 deg angle to windward.No plans to gird the globe of course,the magazines are full of those for when you feel younger and want to ignore the fact that there are big waves out there!