AWB's: how much of a compromise

[geem]

Not working hard enough and hence lack of money is the problem for most leisure sailors cos LWL is everything. Get a 55-60 footer and you can go out in pretty much anything in season. If you don't want to roll, get cat the same or nearly the same length. An Atlantic circuit isn't much of a test though - if you're in 5+m sea it will usually be behind.

We crossed west to east and had wind on the nose all the way to the Azores. Herb was weather routing us so it wasn't down to bad planning just wrong wind! From Azores to Ireland we had one gale but nice as was from behind. These kind of experiences tend to influence your decision when purchasing the next boat. This time we have a heavy, deep keel monohull that sails very well to windward. Centre cockpit with excellent shelter from spray hood. Comfortable motion is important as well as large sail area for light wind conditions. You can't engine all the way to Azores unless you carry an awful lot of fuel but if you can sail well in light airs it makes a huge difference. Folding prop keep light air boat speed up. LWL makes little difference in these conditions. Sail area does.

 

[jwilson]

sipped --- I've seen posts about AWBs slamming in choppy seas - consequent upon the beamy, plum-bowed hull - is this just ballcocks? -----.

I can assure you that a modern cruising Jeanneau can slam very hard indeed if you drive it to windward in a bit of sea, eg. westerly F7 off Start Point. It's not the plumb bow as such that slams: it's the flattish underbody. My previous old-fashioned long-keeled leadmine would not have slammed much, but would have been a great deal slower most of the time, and much less comfortable to live aboard.

As usual being there off Start Point was a result of having a deadline to get back.... But we got there.

A couple of the same model have done ARCs, but I'd not regard it in any way as a bluewater boat, and I'd be very hesitant of taking it properly offshore outside reliable weather windows. But it's very good indeed as a coastal cruiser.

 

[ip485]

I think the difference is comfort. Not the quality of the joinery or upholstery, but sea kindliness.

The Island Packet 485 is long keeled and heavy, probably a little under canvassed and suffers from some of the disadvantages of any long keeler.

On the other hand its interesting going out with skippers who own Beneteaus and the like of a similiar size in a good sea. Instantly they remark on the very different motion, the ease with which the boat makes way, and just how different the expereince is.

I really think that sums it up. You may not get there as fast, and then again you might because the boat simply plods on and doesnt need the same effort, but you will feel more comfortable and fresh after the passage, and if he weather gets wild, the point at which you become uncomfortable (whatever that may be for each individual) will be a force or two less than in an equivalent light weight fin keeler.

In terms of ideal boat, I think size matters. It matters because if you live on board its difficult not to accumulate all the trappings that go with your boat being your home. It seems to me around 50 feet gives you the volume for between 2 and 4, without being two much for 2. That's my theory anyway and seems to work well.

 

[eddystone]

>There has been some comment, as part of numerous threads, about the compromises forced upon AWB manufacturers by market forces, to favour accommodation over sailing abilit

They weren't forced to change the accomodation they chose to do so. Sailing had been a male preserve and the AWB manufacturers wanted to attract women the solution they came up with was a large aft cabin. It worked and sales took off. BA became the world's largest airline after Saatchi and Saatchi pointed out that promoting types of plane and destination was wrong and that pilots fly people not planes. Hence the ads started featuring cabin staff and service.

Not sure blaming women for "softening up" boats is entirely valid. I'm sure roughly 50% of campers are women and my wife thinks putting a shower on a boat is a bad idea - seems happy with a packet of wet wipes. The fact that she doesn't particularly want to come cruising is more to do with preferring dinghy racing. It may be more to do with making boats seem less "boat-like" for people, irrespective of gender, who would rather be somewhere else. IMHO, some blokes use SWMBO requirements as a cover for comforts they really want themselves.

 

[doug748]

I am not sure if I instinctively think plumb bows help reduce slamming or promote it. Certainly massive buoyancy aft and little buoyancy forward would seem to be a invitation to a see saw motion. The chap who designs and builds these boats feels they don't help comfort/slamming at sea:

http://www.sayerdesign.com/

Of course he continues to design them - as we know it is all a compromise.

An interesting bit here from the, much loved, GT yachts:

http://gtyachts.com/files/PlumbStem_FashionOrPhysics_Jan2013.pdf

 

[Daydream believer]

I But it's very good indeed as a coastal cruiser.

Which is what 95% of buyers actually want

 

[Daydream believer]

For me, "AWB" suggests mass-produced mid-market offerings from Beneteau, Jeanneau, Bavaria, Hanse, Dufour - rather like the Ford, Fiat, Renault, Citroen, etc, of the car world. HRs and Xyachts aren't mass-produced, so don't fall into the category.

Is the underwater shape of the HR that much different to the AWB
I spoke to an owner of 2 HR's & he said that his boat was not so dissimilar & HR had gradually refined the shape to compete with AWB's on speed buy still try to keep handling qualities up
Can someone super impose the hull profile of, say, the 38Ft HR, over say a Bav , Benny Hanse etc so we can see
Obviously that will not show how the shoulders & beam at mid point compare, but it might demonstrate very little difference-- Or will it?

 

[Tranona]

Obviously that will not show how the shoulders & beam at mid point compare, but it might demonstrate very little difference-- Or will it?

Did exactly that with my new Bav 33 against an HR 310 - and you are right. Similar underwater shape of hull body (in profile), keel shape virtually the same (shallow keel on mine). same raked spade rudder. Biggest differences are HR has less beam in relation to length, lower displacement but higher ballast ratio and same sail area.

The two other new designs, 372 and 412 have similar characteristics, but the centre cockpit boats retain the earlier style deeper canoe body, longer chord keel and rudder hung on a skeg.

 

[pmagowan]

It is one of the things I don't really understand about modern production boats. They seem to take a little too much interest in racing technology when most people cruise them, not race. Yes it is nice to get there fast but if we wanted speed we would buy a mobo. With modified long keel designs you can get a good compromise on speed but maintaining that sea kindly motion. Yes, they will be a little less easy to steer in the marina but then this should only account for 10 mins out of any trip. People seem to expect double carbon fibre wheels, aggressive fin keels and flush decks in a modern cruiser but none of these things are suited to cruising. When I went sailing in Thailand we were in a 45' standard charter boat and I was amazed at how difficult it was to handle when caught in a gust. We had 2 reefs in but still, as the wind approached 30kn gusts it was almost impossible to hold her on a straight course. My old 28ft long keeler would have heeled over a bit more and simply plowed on, even without a reef. Yes I would have felt a bit more on the tiller but I certainly would have had no problem keeping a course.

I wonder if it isn't about an ego thing. People want a fast boat like they want a fast car even if they can't use it and it is uncomfortable. I know it is horses for courses but I think a lot of people might have been sold a cheap Thoroughbred to pull their cart when they would be better with a Draft horse.

 

[geem]

It is one of the things I don't really understand about modern production boats. They seem to take a little too much interest in racing technology when most people cruise them, not race. Yes it is nice to get there fast but if we wanted speed we would buy a mobo. With modified long keel designs you can get a good compromise on speed but maintaining that sea kindly motion. Yes, they will be a little less easy to steer in the marina but then this should only account for 10 mins out of any trip. People seem to expect double carbon fibre wheels, aggressive fin keels and flush decks in a modern cruiser but none of these things are suited to cruising. When I went sailing in Thailand we were in a 45' standard charter boat and I was amazed at how difficult it was to handle when caught in a gust. We had 2 reefs in but still, as the wind approached 30kn gusts it was almost impossible to hold her on a straight course. My old 28ft long keeler would have heeled over a bit more and simply plowed on, even without a reef. Yes I would have felt a bit more on the tiller but I certainly would have had no problem keeping a course.

I wonder if it isn't about an ego thing. People want a fast boat like they want a fast car even if they can't use it and it is uncomfortable. I know it is horses for courses but I think a lot of people might have been sold a cheap Thoroughbred to pull their cart when they would be better with a Draft horse.

All boats are compromises, we know that. You don't need to go all the way to long keel to get comfort. How about long fin, skeg hung rudder, moderate beam, lead keel, deep draft, flush decks. We have all this in our 1980s cruising boat. The flush decks are great. Easy to move about on deck in any weather. Slab reefing is easy at the mast without the complication of lines in the cockpit. Getting out of the cockpit and moving about the boat is something I see as a positive thing not a negative. Cruising up and down the islands in the Caribbean we haven't been passed by a single AWB no matter how fast they are suppose to be. We have passed lots of AWBs but we are not racing. We are sailing to the next island like everybody else. We are not a racing crew, just the wife and dogs onboard. We have Dacron sails not fancy laminate and we are 4 ton heavier than the Van De Stad drawings suggest.
My compromise was not having a centre line double bed in the aft cabin but that's it. We have all other mod cons and an engine room we can walk into with a work bench. All this on an old pre AWB 44 footer designed to sail long distance in comfort. I would want it any other way. There isn't a modern boat that I would wish to replace her with

 

[JumbleDuck]

So maybe you should be talking about GT Yachts (perhaps the antithesis of the mass-production yacht builder) ...

In as much as they don't actually build or sell yachts?

 

[flaming]

It is one of the things I don't really understand about modern production boats. They seem to take a little too much interest in racing technology when most people cruise them, not race.

As someone interested in race boats I don't get that. I look at a modern race boat (not an open 60, but a modern round the cans boat) and I see a sleek boat with a massive shallow open cockpit, actually quite narrow on the waterline with flared topsides and thin chord keels, probably with a bulb.

E.g.

I look at a modern cruising boat and I see a blob with a smallish cockpit, massive fat arse, thick short keel and more accommodation than the average affordable home.

I've said on here many times that one of the big shifts in recent years in terms of boat design has been the polarization of design. In the era of the contessa 32 etc, that was what a cruising boat looked like. It was also what a racing boat looked like. Now we have cruising boats that are way out in the "volume" corner of the design box, and "cruiser racers" that are pretty far into the opposite corner.

But the one thing you cannot argue with is that the boats being produced today (in the cruising market at least) are exactly what is wanted. I sailed a 47 foot Jeanneau on charter 2 weeks ago. As a sailing boat is was deeply flawed, as a platform for one of the best holidays I've ever had it was almost perfect.

 

[JumbleDuck]

HR look and (not sailed one but I'm sure also feel) completely different.

I was on one this summer. Felt like a big empty shed filled with lots of plywood. OK, I suppose, but I had been led to expect wonders, and it just didn't feel very well put together down below.

 

[eddystone]

All boats are compromises, we know that. You don't need to go all the way to long keel to get comfort. How about long fin, skeg hung rudder, moderate beam, lead keel, deep draft, flush decks. We have all this in our 1980s cruising boat. The flush decks are great. Easy to move about on deck in any weather. Slab reefing is easy at the mast without the complication of lines in the cockpit. Getting out of the cockpit and moving about the boat is something I see as a positive thing not a negative. Cruising up and down the islands in the Caribbean we haven't been passed by a single AWB no matter how fast they are suppose to be. We have passed lots of AWBs but we are not racing. We are sailing to the next island like everybody else. We are not a racing crew, just the wife and dogs onboard. We have Dacron sails not fancy laminate and we are 4 ton heavier than the Van De Stad drawings suggest.
My compromise was not having a centre line double bed in the aft cabin but that's it. We have all other mod cons and an engine room we can walk into with a work bench. All this on an old pre AWB 44 footer designed to sail long distance in comfort. I would want it any other way. There isn't a modern boat that I would wish to replace her with

Oyster 545/Discovery 55 Mk2 possibly?

 

[Tranona]

It is one of the things I don't really understand about modern production boats. They seem to take a little too much interest in racing technology when most people cruise them, not race. Yes it is nice to get there fast but if we wanted speed we would buy a mobo. With modified long keel designs you can get a good compromise on speed but maintaining that sea kindly motion. Yes, they will be a little less easy to steer in the marina but then this should only account for 10 mins out of any trip. People seem to expect double carbon fibre wheels, aggressive fin keels and flush decks in a modern cruiser but none of these things are suited to cruising. When I went sailing in Thailand we were in a 45' standard charter boat and I was amazed at how difficult it was to handle when caught in a gust. We had 2 reefs in but still, as the wind approached 30kn gusts it was almost impossible to hold her on a straight course. My old 28ft long keeler would have heeled over a bit more and simply plowed on, even without a reef. Yes I would have felt a bit more on the tiller but I certainly would have had no problem keeping a course.

I wonder if it isn't about an ego thing. People want a fast boat like they want a fast car even if they can't use it and it is uncomfortable. I know it is horses for courses but I think a lot of people might have been sold a cheap Thoroughbred to pull their cart when they would be better with a Draft horse.

As with all generalisations, this hides the wide variation in a catchall category. There are many modern cruising boats that have longer keels and are more able to stand up to their canvas in gusty conditions (although a longer keel is not a prerequisite for this). You are right that some extreme keel types have been used on boats aimed at the cruising market - T shaped for example, but there is a trend towards longer bulbed keels as you will see on some of the latest designs from Hanse, Bavaria and Jeanneau.

The key word is compromise, and as Flaming suggests, although some modern boats fall short in some areas, often sailing peformance at the limits, they compensate in other areas that are more important to buyers. Performance in marinas is a typical example. It may only be 10 minutes at the end of each passage, but you will find that it is a major concern for many buyers - how do I park this monster with just the two of us. Hence the increasing use of bow thrusters and steerable saildrives. Handling at sea is less of an issue, but make the parking bit easier and you have removed one of the major barriers.

 

[pmagowan]

As someone interested in race boats I don't get that. I look at a modern race boat (not an open 60, but a modern round the cans boat) and I see a sleek boat with a massive shallow open cockpit, actually quite narrow on the waterline with flared topsides and thin chord keels, probably with a bulb.

E.g.

I look at a modern cruising boat and I see a blob with a smallish cockpit, massive fat arse, thick short keel and more accommodation than the average affordable home.

I've said on here many times that one of the big shifts in recent years in terms of boat design has been the polarization of design. In the era of the contessa 32 etc, that was what a cruising boat looked like. It was also what a racing boat looked like. Now we have cruising boats that are way out in the "volume" corner of the design box, and "cruiser racers" that are pretty far into the opposite corner.

But the one thing you cannot argue with is that the boats being produced today (in the cruising market at least) are exactly what is wanted. I sailed a 47 foot Jeanneau on charter 2 weeks ago. As a sailing boat is was deeply flawed, as a platform for one of the best holidays I've ever had it was almost perfect.

I didn't mean they look the same. I said they were too focused on the racing technology. Of course, a cruising boat has to have accommodation etc but they don't need aggressive designs of keel etc. Some race technology has improved sailing for everyone such as winches etc but I think some people just think it is better so I should have it even though it doesn't fit the type of sailing they do.

 

[flaming]

I didn't mean they look the same. I said they were too focused on the racing technology. Of course, a cruising boat has to have accommodation etc but they don't need aggressive designs of keel etc. Some race technology has improved sailing for everyone such as winches etc but I think some people just think it is better so I should have it even though it doesn't fit the type of sailing they do.

But what racing technology are you talking about? The keels used on the oceanis range (for example) are entirely unsuitable for mounting on a racing boat.

Blaming "racing" for the current trend in cruising design is wide of the mark in my opinion.

 

[geem]

Oyster 545/Discovery 55 Mk2 possibly?

too big! cruising with just two people 44 ft is about right for us. We don't need any more space than we have. Cost of sails seems to go up exponentially. We have raced a couple of time on a Farr 56 and we decided that it was too big. So many things to go wrong. When you are in the middle of nowhere fixing stuff becomes a real issue. Even on new boats stuff breaks.
I have been on a friends Ben 50 with the genset buried under the cockpit. I helped him try and fix a blockage on the water inlet hose. That pipe was about 4m long. What a job to unblock. we wanted to take the acoustic shroud off the genny and lift the panels out in to the cockpit to give us some room. They wouldn't go out through the access hatches! the genny had been put in before the deck. What's that all about?
There are some great modern boats and there are some poor ones. Age is not the issue, its good design and bad design. There are some terrible designs from the 70s and 80s and there are some very good designs. Most people requirements these days are different to those 30 years ago. Most people who take to sailing these days start off with a large boat. In my day we started off with a tiny boat, bashed it around a bit until we got more competent and ambitious and we moved up to something larger. The boats we dreamed about in the 80s are starter boats size for many these days. its a different market centred around people with more cash who keep a boat in a marina like a caravan.
I once heard a statistic about Pwllheli marina. it went something like ` only 1/3 of the boats go out of the marina and of those that do, only a 1/3 are competent`. is this a floating caravan park for most? You can see why most peoples ideal boat is a floating caravan. That is what matters to them. if they are not going across the ocean what interest have they in a boat like mine? none. So yes, the AWB is compromised for all the right reasons

 

[dom]

I didn't mean they look the same. I said they were too focused on the racing technology. Of course, a cruising boat has to have accommodation etc but they don't need aggressive designs of keel etc. Some race technology has improved sailing for everyone such as winches etc but I think some people just think it is better so I should have it even though it doesn't fit the type of sailing they do.

This thread, like many before it, has got stuck because nobody really knows what an AWB is. In reality it's probably an entire spectrum: at one end there are nostalgic if dated designs like island Packets and at the other aggressive new speedsters like the MC38, which as Flaming says has little in common with either a Bavaria or a Hallberg Rassy. Even at the racing end of the spectrum there's the narrow and svelte (Wild Oats) and the bigger arsed Comanche and Rambler.

That said, I know what you mean, there are an increasing number of boats which make one think, "what on earth is going on there?"

 

[eddystone]

Performance in marinas is a typical example. It may only be 10 minutes at the end of each passage, but you will find that it is a major concern for many buyers - how do I park this monster with just the two of us.

How very true - nothing likely to happen at sea stresses me as much as parking - and substitute "with just the one of us"; of course one AWB trend, i.e. to get longer/bigger/higher with more windage, does not help here.