AWB's: how much of a compromise
- Thread starter Neil
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Neil
Well-Known Member
Bring on the inspectors from the Ministry of Silly Posts! 
While few would contemplate their own circumnavigation in any boat, "sea-keeping abilities" become imported whenever there is a decent fetch involved. I've seen posts about AWBs slamming in choppy seas - consequent upon the beamy, plum-bowed hull - is this just ballcocks? The boats I've chartered in the Med didn't seem particularly prone, but I never experienced heavy seas when on holiday. In real cruising performance terms, how far off is a JenBenBavHanse from an XC, Arcona. Perhaps the RM/Pogo is too big a stretch?
I did my Coastal Skipper on a Jen Sunfast 37 - that was no slouch - we regularly tootled along at 7kts - what's the current Sunfast equivalent in AWB's? I sometimes crew on a First 37, which goes well too, but is quite tender.
While few would contemplate their own circumnavigation in any boat, "sea-keeping abilities" become imported whenever there is a decent fetch involved. I've seen posts about AWBs slamming in choppy seas - consequent upon the beamy, plum-bowed hull - is this just ballcocks? The boats I've chartered in the Med didn't seem particularly prone, but I never experienced heavy seas when on holiday. In real cruising performance terms, how far off is a JenBenBavHanse from an XC, Arcona. Perhaps the RM/Pogo is too big a stretch?
I did my Coastal Skipper on a Jen Sunfast 37 - that was no slouch - we regularly tootled along at 7kts - what's the current Sunfast equivalent in AWB's? I sometimes crew on a First 37, which goes well too, but is quite tender.
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shaunksb
Well-Known Member
No, it's compromise dear, compromise...
Perhaps we should ask the question the other way round.
If you were taking your family on an Atlantic Circuit how much of a compromise would it be to use an older design of boat?
Slow? Cramped? Wet?
You just need to pick the right tool for the job, it doesn't have to be a compromise at all.
For the above I think I would rather take a Bav 46 over a Rustler 36 if they are about the same sort of price.
I think they are both around £200k, is that right?
If you want something more sporty a First 45 shouldn't be heavily compromised when it comes to sailing ability.
flaming
Well-Known Member
Probably the Beneteau First 35 would be the closest match. All round better boat than the old Sunfast 37 though (which was actually just a Sun oddessy hull with a deep keel and tall rig).
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Bring on the inspectors from the Ministry of Silly Posts!
While few would contemplate their own circumnavigation in any boat, "sea-keeping abilities" become imported whenever there is a decent fetch involved. I've seen posts about AWBs slamming in choppy seas - consequent upon the beamy, plum-bowed hull - is this just ballcocks? The boats I've chartered in the Med didn't seem particularly prone, but I never experienced heavy seas when on holiday. In real cruising performance terms, how far off is a JenBenBavHanse from an XC, Arcona. Perhaps the RM/Pogo is too big a stretch?
I did my Coastal Skipper on a Jen Sunfast 37 - that was no slouch - we regularly tootled along at 7kts - what's the current Sunfast equivalent in AWB's? I sometimes crew on a First 37, which goes well too, but is quite tender.
Not every boat slams. My old 37 used to slam when motoring or motorsailing into heavy seas, but rarely under sail. My new 33 does not appear to slam under the same conditions.
As suggested earlier AWB is just a catchall term (often used in a derogatory way) that covers a very wide range of boat types so generalisations are just that. Much better to look at how people use their boats rather than get fixated about particular generic characteristics.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Not a view supported by Andrew Simpson who built a light displacement boat for his retirement (now 10 years later in the Caribbean) specifically because the hull shape allows greater carrying capacity. He wrote up his reasons in PBO at the time.
All boats lose performance if they have increased displacement without a corresponding increase in sail area.
Norman_E
Well-Known Member
Nearly all boats are a compromise between performance and practical use. I see above comments about a Jeanneau Sunfast and can confirm that if not overloaded most AWBs will get good speeds in the right conditions. My own Jeanneau 45.2 is a design that might have looked extreme with its twin wheels when it first appeared, but now has a very modest hull shape compared to later wide stern, plumb bow designs. It achieves 8 knot speeds regularly despite a modest rig for its size.
I do think however that AWB design has become too fixed on the big accommodation model. I saw a new Jeanneau 36 a few days ago. Its transom appears to be just about the widest bit of the boat and it has extremely back swept spreaders with a backstay less rig. That must compromise its downwind ability to put the mainsail out far enough whilst upwind the wide flat sectioned stern looks set to make broaching easy! Its mast was almost as tall as mine, but it had an in mast mainsail, which looks a poor idea such swept spreaders as you could not even fit leather patches to the sails to protect them from spreader chafe.
I do think however that AWB design has become too fixed on the big accommodation model. I saw a new Jeanneau 36 a few days ago. Its transom appears to be just about the widest bit of the boat and it has extremely back swept spreaders with a backstay less rig. That must compromise its downwind ability to put the mainsail out far enough whilst upwind the wide flat sectioned stern looks set to make broaching easy! Its mast was almost as tall as mine, but it had an in mast mainsail, which looks a poor idea such swept spreaders as you could not even fit leather patches to the sails to protect them from spreader chafe.
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
I do not believe that my boat ( Hanse 31series) is a compromise. It does everything I want of it excellently. It performs extremely well if I sail it well.
What would I like to change - Well another 5 feet would be nice --but that is not the boat's fault.
In fact the reason I did not buy a larger boat 3 years ago ( when i had the cash ready) was because those on offer could not give me more of the same I already have
What would I like to change - Well another 5 feet would be nice --but that is not the boat's fault.
In fact the reason I did not buy a larger boat 3 years ago ( when i had the cash ready) was because those on offer could not give me more of the same I already have
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Sybarite
Well-Known Member
Growlers?
geem
Well-Known Member
A good measure of sea keeping qualities would be, would you take it on an Atlantic circuit? I took a Prout Snowgoose 37 ten years ago. We did it but in hindsight it wasn't the best choice. On the way back in Horta we met Stokey Woodall. Stokey was celebrating his 250,000th ocean mile. We spent some time socially with Stokey and his crew. We asked him and his regular crew what was the best boat he had delivered across the Atlantic. Without much hesitation he said a Rival 38. Modern wide sterned aft double cabins didn't figure. Old fashioned solid, modest designed boats are the way to go if you want sea keeping ability and comfort. You never see sales blurb from a modern boat builder saying this boat is designed for an Atlantic circuit. It's more about how good it is for entertaining in the marina. You only have to look at displacement ratios on modern boats to sea how much they rely on form stability instead of keel weight. Wrong choice for comfortable ocean sailing. I will go and hide now since most people have an AWB....
KellysEye
Well-Known Member
>There has been some comment, as part of numerous threads, about the compromises forced upon AWB manufacturers by market forces, to favour accommodation over sailing abilit
They weren't forced to change the accomodation they chose to do so. Sailing had been a male preserve and the AWB manufacturers wanted to attract women the solution they came up with was a large aft cabin. It worked and sales took off. BA became the world's largest airline after Saatchi and Saatchi pointed out that promoting types of plane and destination was wrong and that pilots fly people not planes. Hence the ads started featuring cabin staff and service.
They weren't forced to change the accomodation they chose to do so. Sailing had been a male preserve and the AWB manufacturers wanted to attract women the solution they came up with was a large aft cabin. It worked and sales took off. BA became the world's largest airline after Saatchi and Saatchi pointed out that promoting types of plane and destination was wrong and that pilots fly people not planes. Hence the ads started featuring cabin staff and service.
dom
Well-Known Member
As a matter of interest can you, or anybody else for that matter, define what you mean by AWB? Is for example Hallberg Rassy an AWB?, an X-yacht? And what about manufacturers that make very different ranges of boats? The reason I ask is that we all like to imagine that we make decisions based upon higher order logic, a cumbersome process which requires us to sift through formidable amounts of new information. So we prefer to stick a convenient label on things; a label which allows us to "logically" conclude that each so labelled item shares the properties we “know” are associated with other items sharing the same label.
You might for example “know” that all Irishmen are binge drinkers; knowing that I'm Irish would therefore allows you to "logically deduce" that I am a binge drinker. Similarly, sticking the AWB label on a yacht enables one to logically deduce that it shares the same characteristics as any other so labelled boat; even if this deduction is totally inconsistent with the facts!
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pvb
Well-Known Member
They didn't choose to change; they're big manufacturers and they invest in consumer research - their market research told them that the consumers wanted more attractive cabins for couples. Perhaps if Westerly and the others had spent some money on research they might still be in business.
pvb
Well-Known Member
For me, "AWB" suggests mass-produced mid-market offerings from Beneteau, Jeanneau, Bavaria, Hanse, Dufour - rather like the Ford, Fiat, Renault, Citroen, etc, of the car world. HRs and Xyachts aren't mass-produced, so don't fall into the category.
wully1
Well-Known Member
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dom
Well-Known Member
Curiously enough BMWs, Mercedes, Rolls Royces and Bentleys amongst others are all banged out on surprisingly similar production lines and all use cross components from "lesser" models. As indeed are Airbus and Boeing aircraft. Nothing bespoke can beat the R&D, development clout and general corporate knowhow of these big guys and niche builders have largely gone out of business, not because buyers couldn't afford their products, but because they didn't want them. One could think of R-R's envelopment into BMW, and Bentley's, Bugatti's and Lamborghini's envelopment into VW in this light. The "mass production label", whilst factually correct, would be highly misleading in these cases.
pvb
Well-Known Member
So maybe you should be talking about GT Yachts (perhaps the antithesis of the mass-production yacht builder) or Morgan Cars (whose continued existence defies logic).
bitbaltic
Well-Known Member
Mass produced or not, last time I was on an X yacht, I assure you I was stone-cold on an AWB. It's how it looks and feels, not how many they make.
HR look and (not sailed one but I'm sure also feel) completely different.
dom
Well-Known Member
Fair comment, but if R-R and the other aforementioned brands are all "AWCs" then I rest my case
tcm
...
Not working hard enough and hence lack of money is the problem for most leisure sailors cos LWL is everything. Get a 55-60 footer and you can go out in pretty much anything in season. If you don't want to roll, get cat the same or nearly the same length. An Atlantic circuit isn't much of a test though - if you're in 5+m sea it will usually be behind.