Avoiding Scuba Divers, Surface Marker Buoys etc

I have always taken it as read that cover boats should fly the A flag with divers down; divers' personal floats should be red and white, normally a cone on a ring base.
Certainly in the med is common practice to take a float on a reel, even when snorkelling away from main bathing areas.
My main gripe is that most A flags are left up on ribs all the time and are too small to be visible from any distance.
BTW, many of the folk on this forum are divers, so welcome. It can only be healthy to share experiences and views when we all enjoy a common resource.
 
Colregs state Rule 27 (e) (ii) a rigid replica of the International Code flag A, not less tham 1 metere in height. Measures shall be taken to ensure its all-round visibility.

But that is only if size of the vessel engaged in diving operations makes it impractical to exhibit all lights and shapes in Rule 27 (d)

The only mention as to distance to keep clear is "she must be given a wide berth" Although personally I would certainly keep at least 200 metres distance away.
 
Mark,
Maybe easier to grab the US one but maybe that alone highlights a problem? If you, clearly a knowledgeable boater, can't easily access the UK info what chance the average boater? In this I am referring more to the 100m 'rule' which you raise.

SMBs in their various guises are difficult to confuse with pot markers or buoys but I had to laugh at your comment that yours had diver down on them - how is that going to be read from more than 100m? ie I think thats an SMB shall we go over and have a look?!
The issues you highlight are probably (you can confirm) in busy areas and there are issues for all parties - as an example drift dives off Old Harry - Ballard Down can see 3 or more small dive boats and 20 SMBs inshore of small boat fishing fleet which leaves small craft transiting Poole to Swanage nowhere to go other than past keeping as clear as they can. With 1 a minute passing at peak times the divers are going to 'feel' pretty exposed although they should be fine.
A few other points - many dive boats end up well over 100m from their divers on these dives (or vice versa).
Dive boats in the UK do not raise and lower their diver down flags let alone fly the correctly speced ones. This complacenecy breeds poor recognition amongst other water users.


It's these busy areas that attract not only large numbers of divers but also many many 'holiday boaters' . The latter are not well represented on these forums, and cause as much concern amongst members here as they do for you.

Additionally UK divers don't obey the 100m rule - if I am on a wreck fishing with my engine running will they stay 100m away? Yea right!


Finally despite your implications lets be clear - there are no legal requirements for qualifications to dive in the UK.

Enjoy you sport.
 
99299_20_small.jpg
This is a delayed surface marker buoy.
 
The only time I've seen an 'A' flag here on the east coast(it's very dirty water), it was on a small rib and only a single rigid flag about 12" square - the trouble was I was approaching it 'head on' so only realised it was an 'A' flag when about 25 yards away. I was sailing at the time and not motoring, and immediately veered away keeping a sharp lookout. The suggestion earlier of a 3 sided rigid flag sounds much better as it should be visible all round.
 
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Mark,
Maybe easier to grab the US one but maybe that alone highlights a problem? If you, clearly a knowledgeable boater, can't easily access the UK info what chance the average boater? In this I am referring more to the 100m 'rule' which you raise.


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Ok I'm not a boater of any kind. I'm a diver.
I can access the UK info. this was just done in a rush I'm having to do work between posts.

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SMBs in their various guises are difficult to confuse with pot markers or buoys but I had to laugh at your comment that yours had diver down on them - how is that going to be read from more than 100m? ie I think thats an SMB shall we go over and have a look?!


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This is going to be a problem. Agreed.

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The issues you highlight are probably (you can confirm) in busy areas and there are issues for all parties - as an example drift dives off Old Harry - Ballard Down can see 3 or more small dive boats and 20 SMBs inshore of small boat fishing fleet which leaves small craft transiting Poole to Swanage nowhere to go other than past keeping as clear as they can. With 1 a minute passing at peak times the divers are going to 'feel' pretty exposed although they should be fine.
A few other points - many dive boats end up well over 100m from their divers on these dives (or vice versa).
Dive boats in the UK do not raise and lower their diver down flags let alone fly the correctly speced ones. This complacenecy breeds poor recognition amongst other water users.


It's these busy areas that attract not only large numbers of divers but also many many 'holiday boaters' . The latter are not well represented on these forums, and cause as much concern amongst members here as they do for you.


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I was thinking this too. It is a problem

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Additionally UK divers don't obey the 100m rule - if I am on a wreck fishing with my engine running will they stay 100m away? Yea right!


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The noise of a prop underwater would make me stay away!

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Finally despite your implications lets be clear - there are no legal requirements for qualifications to dive in the UK.

Enjoy you sport.

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I think 100% of people believe they could steer a 'boat' ask them to don scuba gear and jump in, I bet they'd refuse.


Good points, well made.

thanks.

Mark
 
Ahh..... just like a Solent race mark..... likely to attract the PWC loonies if you ask me..... why don't they have an A flag on them?... also in some light conditions, could look awfully like a red channel marker..... a bright yellow one might be more appropriate.... yachties are more likely to stay away from any yellow marks!

PS... welcome to the forum... nice to get some alternative input....
 
Same problem really as we have with speeding moboers, and loony raggies going out without VHF, just mobile phones....... lack of education, and lack of enforcement..... I have maintained for some time that compulsory certification is inevitable.... partly because it then helps the authorities to be harder on bad practice/law breaking from divers and sailors alike.....and hopefully makes it safer for all involved...

FWIW, I would reinforce the point someone made above.... over the years many a diver has saved the skin of a sailor by clearing props, retrieving outboards/keys/etc... and harmony is in all our interests... and that harmony is damaged by stupidity on both sides of the debate...
 
Most people are aware of the A flag - but aren't there also flags used which look like white square on a red background? (casts mind back to Open Water course...)
 
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a bright yellow one might be more appropriate.... yachties are more likely to stay away from any yellow marks

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You mean just like the racing marks ... Doh! Perhaps they should just use an inflatable dummy ... oops - no that would just attract more attention! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
 
As another who has dived for many years - I believe that a delayed SMB / sausage (and probably under most circumstances SMBs as well) are primarily so that your surface cover can follow where you are - obviously particularly important if you are drift diving / undertaking decompression stops (though the wisdom of doing those in open water is debatable).

Surely this means as other have said that its your cover boat which should be flying a decent A flag and acting as a "sheepdog" to keep inqusitive boats away.

If anyone got close enough to my delayed to pull it up - I would want to know what my surface cover was upto. To this end I would argue that the exact appearance of the delayed SMB should be of secondary importance.

I appreciate that occasionally divers can be carried off in different directions etc giving the cover boat a hard time - but minimising the chances of this is all part of the planning isn't it ?
 
"The chances are you will die very quickly if you don't have training."
I'd prefer that to dying very slowly /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif but seriously, it all depends on what sort of 'diving' you are doing. I used to use diving kit to clear props, inspect the bottom, clear anchors, etc. I just bought the kit and read up on the subject and, being a strong swimmer and an engineer didn't die quickly or slowly! What makes you believe that it is impossible for someone to learn these things without having 'training'?
 
I hope you are not serious. Just in case answer these please:

What do you know about DCI?
How to safely attached the gear, to avoid exploding your pressure gauge?
What does a wavering SPG gauge mean when you breath in?
Why cant you use > 21% Oxygen with titanium regs?
What happens if you attach a 300bar cylinder to a 1st stage rate to 232? Could you tell the difference?
Whats the depth limit when using nitrox 40?
How do you use the gas laws to prevent uncontrolled ascent / descent?
Whats the max ascent rate?
What are the symptoms of the bends?
Whats the max time you can spend at 3m before you risk DCI?
Why is holding your breath likely to burst your lungs?
Why shouldn't you get water into the 1st stage when cleaning?
What is secondary drowning?
Why does your surface cover require oxygen?
What are the dangers of dehyration prior to diving?

The wrong answer to any of these will kill you or seriously injure. Like I said. Common sense should prevail but often doesn't.

Spend £300 a scuba course and save your own life.
 
Hmm .. I can't answer many of those, but I would like to do a divers course anyway. As with everything, the answers can be gained by experience or by tuition - tuition can be self taught via books or a course.
It is tempting to have a compressed air bottle onboard to give me more time underneath the boat when required, but spending > £300 on gear means I will go and find an old colleague to teaches about this stuff! ...

I would've thought though, that if you can duck dive to a depth then it is reasonably safe to use compressed air to the same depth without too much issue ....
 
So long as you breath out on the way up else you could burst a lung / get an embolism - even from fairly shallow.

Read the book / do the course - I guess the course has the advantage of supposedly checking you didn't skip the important page !
 
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So long as you breath out on the way up else you could burst a lung / get an embolism - even from fairly shallow.

Read the book / do the course - I guess the course has the advantage of supposedly checking you didn't skip the important page !

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The fastest rate of change in pressure is the first 10m. You can do yourself some serious damage.

You have to do the course. Learning this from a book is NOT an option. Can you learn plumbing or car maintenance from a book? Well you can get a good idea but its no substitute for getting real practical experience taught by an experienced person.

Of course with plumbing and car maintenance there are less ways to actually kill yourself. With scuba there are many ways to kill yourself.

Bad plumbers cause leaks.
Bad mechanics charge you a lot for an unreliable fix
Bad divers die.

And sadly many do every year. And they had the training.
Please don't try it without.
 
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Hmm .. I can't answer many of those, but I would like to do a divers course anyway. As with everything, the answers can be gained by experience or by tuition - tuition can be self taught via books or a course.
It is tempting to have a compressed air bottle onboard to give me more time underneath the boat when required, but spending > £300 on gear means I will go and find an old colleague to teaches about this stuff! ...

I would've thought though, that if you can duck dive to a depth then it is reasonably safe to use compressed air to the same depth without too much issue ....

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When you duck dive you take a breath at 1bar (1 atmosphere) as you dive this air compresses in your lungs, and uncompresses as your surface. No problem.

If you take a breath at 20m, you are breathing air at 3bar, i.e. 1 breath is 3 times the volume than at the surface. If you hold your breath and surface, air exands to 3 times the volume and has no place to escape. And your lungs rupture. and you die.

Do a course, not only will it save you life, but it will open up a whole new world you could never have imagined. It may even be more addictive that boating.

Thanks

Mark
 
Back in the early '70s, when this was an issue for me, I tried to get training from the British Sub Aqua Club. I toddled along to a meeting at the local swimming pool, cheque book in hand, and asked to be enrolled on a training course. It wasn't possible; they had no such thing. You had to be a member of a 'club' and be friendly and clubby with all the other people. I did not wish to be friendly or clubby with these fellows, I just wanted to learn to dive.

Leaving that aside, they told me that I would not be permitted to use scuba gear for at LEAST 10 weeks as I had to do basic pool training and all the tests. The tests were so basic that I could have passed the most difficult there and then. No, that was not permitted; I had to have the TRAINING then pass each test in sequence. It was going to take at least six months to get to the most basic level of qualification so I bought the BSAC book which was easy to understand. As an engineer I had no trouble understanding everything in the book so when I bought my kit (with advice from the dive shop) all went fine. Swimmingly, in fact /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Maybe things have changed on the training side - I hope so - but it does not change the fact that diving is not so terribly complicated that it cannot be learnt from a book. The biggest issue is diving without a buddy but that is almost always the case for a yachtsman needing to dive to work on his hull or retrieve ground tackle. It is just one of those risks that people take from time to time and given the depths and infrequent number of dives, the absolute risks are not high. My guess is that you'll find that 75% of long distance cruising yachtsmen carry scuba on board and very few have formal qualifications - that's just a guess based on the people I know and know of, it could be miles out.
 
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