Avoiding Scuba Divers, Surface Marker Buoys etc

[diveaddict]

This message is prompted by some issues raised on a diving forum. They concern boat owners perhaps not be aware of diving flags and warnings to indicate divers below who are ready to surface.

Basically the diving rules state if a diver has surface marker buoy indicated by Blue and White 'A' flag or the Red square with white diagonal line (US), then no powered boat should venture within 100m to prevent propeller accidents where divers get sucked in.

There have been a couple of these incidents recently, including a few deaths.

The debate on the diving forum was asking if boat owners are aware of the flags and surface marker buoys? Is this part of the boat handler training?

No-one knew the answer so I thought I'd post here and ask.


The other usual markers are the safety sausage (aka marker buoys) which are long thin inflatable markers in bright colours which are held by divers and sent to the surface when we do safety stops. They are attached my a reel and line to the diver. some have reported jetski people using them as turning points and even boat users pulling them along and potentially injuring divers as they ascend quickly and get the bends! rare but documented cases exist.

I'm not trying to point fingers etc, just asking and hopefully raising awareness (if this is even needed) and perhaps improving safety.

Does boat handling instruction include recognition of diving flags etc?

Thanks for any info you can provide.

Mark

 

[AngusMcDoon]

The meaning of the A flag is taught by all the RYA shore-based courses. These courses are optional however. There are no compulsary sailing courses required (yet!) to go to sea in the UK.

 

[ChrisE]

Yes, is the short answer. The RYA Dayskipper and Yachtmaster courses include identification of and sigtnificance of A flags. We weren't told about the inflatable safety markers and that might be an area that might need updating (i did mine 10 yrs ago) to refelct the changes in kit used by divers.

As some feedback to the diving fraternity, the A flags aren't always displayed as clearly as they might. A couple of times off the Dorest coast I'vec nearly gone into a diving area assuming that the guys laying around in the rib were fishing. It wasn't until I got very close that I sawe the flag.

 

[Evadne]

All RYA instruction courses will tell you about the "A" flag, the IRPCS are very simple and clear on the matter, and they are taught to all navigators. There have been complaints on this forum about some dive boats not displaying it, then complaining when boats come too close, but I've not come across this personally. Nobody who was aware of their presence would venture into an area where divers are operating, or so I would hope, so fly an "A" flag, preferably a very large one from any mast or pole and we will see you. Drape it across the sponsons and don't expect anyone to see it until its too late.

Re. the inflatable orange buoys I, for one, wasn't aware that a marker, which from your description resembles an dinghy racing mark, might be a diver's surface marker. Are these marked clearly "Diver below" or something similar? Most MoBos and cruisers will keep clear of ANY surface marker, because of the danger of entangling the prop. or rudder in a floating line.

If you are having problems with ignorant or irresponsible PWC operators, then you are in a very big club. Some people think they should be regulated, others that they should be educated, and still others that they should be shot on sight. Preferably with a radar guided missile. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[diveaddict]

Thanks for the answers - very useful.

Ref the SMB (surface marker buoys) or DSMB (Delayed SMBs) they look like this: -

http://www.liddiard.demon.co.uk/photoix/dsmb/dsmb.htm

hope this info is useful too.

My DSMB has DIVERS Below written on it. I'll post any feedback onto the dive forum.

thanks again.

Mark

 

[Col]

Welcome to YBW.
I think most on here are aware of the A flag, but you do raise a valid point. Maybe a timely reminder to some??

Incidently, which type of watercraft / boat are the worst offenders in your opinion?

 

[cliff]

[ QUOTE ]
This message is prompted by some issues raised on a diving forum. They concern boat owners perhaps not be aware of diving flags and warnings to indicate divers below who are ready to surface.

Basically the diving rules state if a diver has surface marker buoy indicated by Blue and White 'A' flag or the Red square with white diagonal line (US), then no powered boat should venture within 100m to prevent propeller accidents where divers get sucked in.

[/ QUOTE ] Flag Alpha means "I have divers down - all vessels stand well clear" Flags and their meanings are covered in basic boat handling.
[ QUOTE ]
There have been a couple of these incidents recently, including a few deaths.

The debate on the diving forum was asking if boat owners are aware of the flags and surface marker buoys? Is this part of the boat handler training?

No-one knew the answer so I thought I'd post here and ask.

[/ QUOTE ]See above.

[ QUOTE ]
The other usual markers are the safety sausage (aka marker buoys) which are long thin inflatable markers in bright colours which are held by divers and sent to the surface when we do safety stops. They are attached my a reel and line to the diver. some have reported jetski people using them as turning points and even boat users pulling them along and potentially injuring divers as they ascend quickly and get the bends! rare but documented cases exist.

[/ QUOTE ] Unless your "safety sausage" carries a pole or something and flys flag alpha it has no meaning and would not recognised as indicating "Diver Below". "Rogue" buoys are frequently lifted as they are a hazard to navigation - be warned!

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not trying to point fingers etc, just asking and hopefully raising awareness (if this is even needed) and perhaps improving safety.

Does boat handling instruction include recognition of diving flags etc?

Thanks for any info you can provide.

Mark

[/ QUOTE ]On the subject of diving, do you consider it to be safe practice to be diving in deep water where you need to do decompression without a cover boat?. The group I dived with for many, many years always had at least one cover / rescue boat in the water. The cover boat being used to "chase off" motor boats coming too close.

In addition do you consider it safe to dive in shipping channels or other areas with frequent boat traffic or are we all to get out of your way because you decide to dive in the shipping or small boiat channel?
----------

“Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity”
Skype id:cliffillupo

 

[diveaddict]

Opinion differs on this, JetSki's are mentioned a lot, and I have heard the phrase 'pleasure boats' mentioned. Thats a bit vague for my liking though.

I'd imagine its a minority that spoil it for everyone.

I was shocked to hear that "There are no compulsary sailing courses required (yet!) to go to sea in the UK."

Just like in diving, I presume common sense should but doesn't always prevail.!

/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif)

Mark

 

[Joe_Cole]

I'm aware of the flags, but have never heard of the 100metre rule. Where does that appear?

As others have said the flag is not always well displayed. A while ago I saw a very small one on an inflatable buoy which turned out to be moving along with the diver. It was totally inadequate for the job. He may have thought he was doing the right thing but he really was putting himself in danger.

 

[savageseadog]

Perhaps divers should be instructed on how to avoid boats. I came accross one right in the middle of Calf Sound (Isle of Man) with a tiny float. If you don't know it it's half a cable wide (or do I mean narrow) I hadn't been through before and it's one of those places you would rather be in the middle of with a fin keel. The tide was ripping through with us and I wasn't really sure that I could turn round in time. I slowed up and fortunately the diver moved far enough one way for us to squeeze through.

 

[diveaddict]

> On the subject of diving, do you consider it to be safe practice
> to be diving in deep water where you need to do
> decompression without a cover boat?.

Absolutely not. This may be a problem where deep currents drag divers away from boats, or shore dives where divers follow reefs etc. At the bottom there is no easy way in low visibility (i.e. UK diving) what is above you. I would not dive near a shipping channel etc.


>The group I dived with for many, many years always had at
>least one cover / rescue boat in the water. The cover boat
>being used to "chase off" motor boats coming too close.

This is standard practise for us too.

> In addition do you consider it safe to dive in shipping channels > or other areas with frequent boat traffic or are we all to get
> out of your way because you decide to dive in the shipping or > small boat channel?

All of these are big no-no's! you'd have to be a lunatic to do that.

I think these issues may occur where divers and boating areas overlap without intention, shorelines etc, which could be anywhere in the sea, i.e. away from harbours, shipping lanes etc. i.e. more grey area locations.

 

[cliff]

[ QUOTE ]
I was shocked to hear that "There are no compulsary sailing courses required (yet!) to go to sea in the UK."
/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif)

Mark

[/ QUOTE ]I am shocked to hear that there is still no compulsary diver training courses required to go diving. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
----------

“Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity”
Skype id:cliffillupo

 

[cliff]

Ah, a sensible "scooby-doo" at last. Most I have met over recent years were a little "gung-ho" for my liking. - Either that or they had a death wish.
----------

“Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity”
Skype id:cliffillupo

 

[diveaddict]

There are compulsary rules ref diving.

1) You cannot hire kit without valid PADI openwater or BSAC equivalent card.

2) The chances are you will die very quickly if you don't have training.

(although that would improve some people!!)

 

[diveaddict]

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps divers should be instructed on how to avoid boats. I came accross one right in the middle of Calf Sound (Isle of Man) with a tiny float. If you don't know it it's half a cable wide (or do I mean narrow) I hadn't been through before and it's one of those places you would rather be in the middle of with a fin keel. The tide was ripping through with us and I wasn't really sure that I could turn round in time. I slowed up and fortunately the diver moved far enough one way for us to squeeze through.

[/ QUOTE ]


Agreed. the rules for the alpha flag are as follows, clearly that guy did not follow the rules.

This is also shows that some of the buoys with the little flags that I have seen are woefully inadequate as they are not 12"x12" - point taken.

Also below is the 300ft / 100m rule for the other posting.

________



Divers-down flags must be either square or rectangular, red with a white diagonal stripe and have a stiffener to keep it unfurled and visible.
bullet

Flags must be displayed at all times when divers or snorkelers are in the water, including beach entry dive. The flag must be LOWERED when there are no divers in the water.
bullet

Flags that are towed on buoys or floats must be at least 12” x 12” in size.
bullet

On boats, flags are required to be at least 20” x 24” and must be displayed from the highest point of the boat that will present an unobstructed view from all directions.
bullet

The divers-down flag cannot be displayed in an area that would obstruct boat traffic or creates a hazard to navigation on any river, inlet, or channel, except in case of emergency.
bullet

Under state law, boaters must make reasonable efforts to stay 300 feet away from divers-down flags in open water and 100 feet away in rivers, inlets, and navigation channels. Boaters approaching flags closer than these distances must slow their boat to idle speed, or the minimum speed necessary to maintain forward motion and maneuverability.
bullet

Divers and snorkelers must make reasonable efforts to stay within the 300 feet limit of their flag in open water, and within 100 feet in rivers, inlets, and channels.
bullet

"Buzzing" a dive flag has been added to the description of Florida State Statute 327.331(6), Reckless Operation of a Vessel, which is a 1st degree misdemeanor and punishable by up to a $1,000 fine and/or up to 6 months in jail. Two convictions within 12 months of any dive flag violation will trigger the boater education course requirement.
bullet

Divers-down flag violations (other than buzzing a dive flag) are now civil violations and subject to a $50 civil penalty.

 

[MacW]

A problem in identifying dive boats is seeing the A flag at all, as I found at the south end of Kerrera Sound a couple of weeks agnly saw it at the last minute - a miserable filthy thing about 6 inches square , Two other yachts approaching from S. and Sod`s Law we all converged at that point, the narrowest point of the sound, with a diver in it. They hadn`t seen the flag either and only changed course sharpish after I yelled a warning.
So please, can we ask that the A flags are large and CLEAN, preferably one of those rigid 3 sided thingies so you can see it even though normal flag might be blowing away from you and impossible to see.

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

Must remember my Alpha if I swim off the boat, might need to check the prop. Its used as a bedspread so should be large enough? I've seen drif diving in Chi harbour with no discernable Alpha anywhere, indeed, one of my regular crew when he's on leave, went over in the tender and gave them a talking to. Mind you, he pays for his diving by selling his expertise in same so I guess he knew what he was on about.

 

[diveaddict]

> I think the problem is that So please, can we ask that the A flags >are large and CLEAN, preferably one of those rigid 3 sided >thingies so you can see it even though normal flag might be >blowing away from you and impossible to see.

Agreed.

 

[graham]

Like most yachts people I am fully aware of the meaning of Flag alpha .Unfortunately in some cases the divers themselves are careless about it.

re Joe COles post I had a similar experience recently.

I arrived at Dale in Milford Haven earlier this year and was manouvering towards the pontoon when I noticed a small blue and white blow up ball about 8 inches in diameter in the water began to move.

Only The fact it was moving and the colour alerted me it may be a diver.I stopped the engine and drifted onto the pontoon.

I spoke to some divers later and they didnt seem too concerned .They could have easilly fixed a flag alpha onto the pontoon only 20 feet away.Or had someone to wave you away at least.

IMHO the inflatable marker buoy was not adequate marking. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Please dont think I am anti diver ,far from it.

When a mobo near me fouled his prop on rope out in Broad sound a boat full of divers answered his call for help and had him on his way in 5 minutes.The seas big enough for us all with a bit of common sense.

 

[Col]

You mention various "State laws" etc:
Where are you based? USA?