Autopilot for long distances

If you read the gear reports on ARCs usually found in Yachting World the most common failure is electronic and autohelms in particular. Even the big race yachts suffer problems. Most of the boats doing things like the ARC are now significantly bigger than they were 10 years ago typically 42' + and many carry a generator, if you don't and rely on an autopilot with all the rest of the electronic kit and fridge etc you will run the engine. In my estimation there have been some generous figures quoted for solar panel output (there are many threads on this) dont expect more than 2.5 to 3 Ahr out of a 50 watt panel well mounted and conservative for power draw for an autohelm.
I have and have used both my Hydrovane steering hundreds if not thousands of miles unfed and essentially unattended in all conditions and all wind speeds it is even set up to be managed by a small tiller pilot in very light winds and as, has been said can be used as a totally independant and seperate rudder from the ships own. I aslo have an underdeck Whitlock (Lewmar) motor and geerbox connected into the rod steering controlled by a Raymarine 7000 series unit which works faultlessly but is power hungary. Both will steer to wind angle both will steer a compass course the Hydrovane though will be subject to wind shifts but is only a moments work to reset it to the new wind direction it also keeps you more in tune with the boat as you pay more attention to the set up and therefore sail more efficiently. Cost if you are installing from scratch the windvane will be a little more expensive but not much certainly easier to install, if you are paying someone to install then the autopilot will be much more expensive.
I like to have both (or all three) forms of unattended helm control but if I were about to set off on a 20 to 30 day crossing and could only choose one it would be windpilot, my hydrovane by choice.

Just another view.
 
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Certainly a wind vane type is a large cost and big installation job and is very vulnerable to damage by following seas. The big advantage is that it brands your boat "deep sea long distance sailor".

Not sure i can agree with any of that I'm afraid :( . Following seas aren't really a problem. plenty of southern ocean action has been seen using windvanes, broken vanes seem to be possible with knockdowns but that's just a piece of marine ply. As for the cost... well if you are going elec option then to do it properly you'll need a strong unit and have it linked up to a wind sensor. Much of an atlantic crossing will be dead downwind both ways , if you have an autopilot using compass for heading then there is a real risk of gybing during a wind shift. All that will add up to plus the power generation on top. Maybe looking at it that way a windvane isn't so expensive.
And who cares about branding ;)

After being out there i really can't see why anyone would add complexity to such a vital system when it isn't necessary. Even more so if single handed. It's a boat! Things break. Keep it simple and fixable.
 
Much of an atlantic crossing will be dead downwind both ways , if you have an autopilot using compass for heading then there is a real risk of gybing during a wind shift. All that will add up to plus the power generation on top. Maybe looking at it that way a windvane isn't so expensive.
And who cares about branding ;)
I was thinking about a standard compass driven AP, and the gybing was one thing I thought might be a problem - I imagine having an advanced system linked to wind and speed instruments with spares would probably be a lot more expensive than a wind vane. They do seem very expensive for what they are though - perhaps I could have a go at making one myself :)
 
I often sail singlehanded.

I am only willing to do solo passages I am confident I can complete should the tillerpilot fail, so no further than about 60nms at a time. I have had two tillerpilots pack up over the last four seasons.

My TP uses about 1.5 to 2 amps. Add this to a chartplotter and radio and you have significant battery use, more if you are sailing at night with a tri on.

I did a couple of North Sea crossings a couple of seasons ago. Rather than depend on the TP I took crew.

I'm getting a windvane this summer.

It is expensive, about 20% of the original cost of the boat, but should I change boat I can take it with me and they do have a high resale value.
 
you can pick them up cheap now and then on e-bay,i bought mine on e-bay for £85 was not wanted by the new owner of a yacht in norfolk,mine was a hydrovane unit,few bolts missing but ok dont think it had been used since new

Which type did you get for £85, that is a real bargain. I have a second hand Navik bought for £400, not off ebay, it would have gone for more there. The last one I saw went for £575 I think & there was also a boxed unused one, not sure what that went for though, upwards of a grand I should think. Plastimo don't manufacture them any more...

Tommy what boat do you have, if not too big/heavy a second hand Navik would be a very good bet. Get a windvane working properly on the back of your boat and you'll very soon realise how fantastic they are...
 
dont expect more than 2.5 to 3 Ahr out of a 50 watt panel well mounted and conservative for power draw for an autohelm.
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Power output from a solar panel will naturally be very dependent on weather and location, but 3AHr from a 50w panel is very low. As an average something like 3-4X this amount might be a good starting figure.
 
So wind vanes perform well when the **** its the fan? I'd imagined they would lose it a bit in high winds. (Sorry for my ignorance, never used a wind vane before)

No, you're wrong. More wind means more power delivered by a wind vane to the steering system. If it's the servo type, then more wind means more boat speed which also means more power delivered.
I was an OSTAR competitor in the year only 15 of the 45 entries made it across. Of those, a large proportion retired due to electric autopilot failure with no mechanical back-up. No wind vanes failed.
I'm not against electric autopilots - I've got a good one as well as a Monitor (and previously a Hydrovane) - but for anything more than a long Channel crossing, or perhaps a Biscay, an autopilot alone is too much of a risk, in my opinion.
The exception would be on a v large yacht where the autopilot gear came out of the shipping and not the leisure industry.
 
I've just sold my Twister which had a Monitor windvane fitted but buyer bought without.
The guy is off to the Azores and says he intends to do it with tiller pilots... MAD!, even though the boat has a wind genny.
The Monitor is now being tubed up to go on my present boat although I do have a couple of ST4000 on board and solar panels and a Rutland wind genny. (914i needs to be sent back, but thats another story)
I would never contemplate going ocean sailing without a windvane.
I did sail accross Biscay non stop, Plymouth to N.Spain in a boat with a large auto pilot and that necessitated running the engine for about two hours total each day to top batteries up.... noisy b****y thing! Ruins a good sail!
 
I did sail accross Biscay non stop, Plymouth to N.Spain in a boat with a large auto pilot and that necessitated running the engine for about two hours total each day to top batteries up.... noisy b****y thing! Ruins a good sail!

My under deck autopilot consumption is under 2a.
 
Power output from a solar panel will naturally be very dependent on weather and location, but 3AHr from a 50w panel is very low. As an average something like 3-4X this amount might be a good starting figure.

I doubt it 50watts will be the maximum output at something approaching 15volts charging the best you are likely to get is a little over 3 then consider where it will be mounted what the weather will be like and 2.5Ahr output is looking a good figure to base your calculations on any surplus and it's easy to find something to switch on that will gobble that up and more so with a fridge almost a nessessity nowadays you are still going to have to run an engine and carry diesel, I know what my choice would be but then I don't have to worry about that nasty Hydrovane spoiling the looks of my AWB:rolleyes::D
 
I doubt it 50watts will be the maximum output at something approaching 15volts charging the best you are likely to get is a little over 3 then consider where it will be mounted what the weather will be like and 2.5Ahr output is looking a good figure to base your calculations on any surplus and it's easy to find something to switch on that will gobble that up and more so with a fridge almost a nessessity nowadays you are still going to have to run an engine and carry diesel, I know what my choice would be but then I don't have to worry about that nasty Hydrovane spoiling the looks of my AWB:rolleyes::D
Today my panels were regulating for much of the day nevertheless I got 123Ahs from 330w. A smaller 50w panel would have given at least 123x50/330=18Ahrs .

Not all locations, or times of year will get as good results, but 2.5Ahrs from 50w is a very low average output
 
As has been said the number of autopilot failures on long passages is lengendary. The reason is the rudder loading is significantly higher than coastal cruising mainly caused by swells from two or three directions. Thus a wind vane is the way to go. If you really want an autopilot spec it at least one size, preferably two, larger than that specified for you boat weight/length. That should be able to handle it but electonics break, windvanes don't.
 
Today my panels were regulating for much of the day nevertheless I got 123Ahs from 330w. A smaller 50w panel would have given at least 123x50/330=18Ahrs .

Not all locations, or times of year will get as good results, but 2.5Ahrs from 50w is a very low average output

I think we are at cross purposes here are you talking about total output or output per hour which is what I am refering to ie about 2.5 Amps per hour, perhaps 20 to 25 amps per day sometimes more.
 
I think we are at cross purposes here are you talking about total output or output per hour which is what I am refering to ie about 2.5 Amps per hour, perhaps 20 to 25 amps per day sometimes more.
OK now I understand your meaning.
The units you are using are the wrong way around.

A solar panel might be producing at any moment in time 2.5 amps and the total output for a day might be 20 Amphours.
 
Try asking Les Powles if wind vanes work when the wind picks up - he has 3 solo circumnavigations under Solitaire's keel and his Hydrovane steered nearly all of those miles!

Hydrovane £4K+
Monitor £3.25K+
smaller boats have got by with smaller windvanes but if going accross oceans you need something substantial I reckon.
 
If I was doing any off shore, ocean sailing I would not leave port without my Hydrovane steering system

QED....
 
Hi dab
The Hydrovane also has the advantage of being able to act as an emergency rudder i believe??
How do they get on in tight turning circles in a marina/harbour situation, are they o.k.?

My last boat had a Hydrovane and it was a top class bit of kit. I now have a boat with a Monitor, which is also good.
Where the Monitor scores, I think, is being able to raise the paddle without getting into a dinghy. I remember some very large turning circles under engine when I had the HVane
 
I can only imagin they are not as effective as the boats own rudder in the case of my own boat the vane rudder is less than half the size of the boats rudder. They can in fact hinder the boats manouverabillity if left in place and this is the only drawback and criticism of the Hydrovane. If you are trying to turn and you have effectively a fixed rudder behind the main rudder your turning circle will be restricted if you could use both it may well improve matters. Hydrovane reccomend removing the rudder when not required. I have never lost my rudder so how well it would steer with it I can't say but certainly well enough to control the boat in open water.
 
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