Autopilot for long distances

[Conachair]

I was thinking about a standard compass driven AP, and the gybing was one thing I thought might be a problem - I imagine having an advanced system linked to wind and speed instruments with spares would probably be a lot more expensive than a wind vane. They do seem very expensive for what they are though - perhaps I could have a go at making one myself

Gybing might not be that big a deal but it will probably be an issue. I've only ever been offshore with windvane so don't know for certain. The trades are beautiful consistant relaxing winds, most of the time anyway. Squalls will get you steering to a compass rather than wind though. Which is probably one time you don't want an accidental gybe.

On a broader view I think there's a lot to be said for getting a boat which has just come back from bluewater sailing - the bugs will mostly have been ironed out and even if the systems are a bit worn it's easier to replace than to start from scratch.

 

[SvenglishTommy]

Well I'm convinced now, I'll get a wind vane of some description. Maybe with more crew the risk wouldn't be so high, but single handing the you guys are right, any failure of would be a bloody nightmare - although might teach me a thing or two about haing to balance a boat well

I cant fork out 4K for one, but I could maybe pick one up on ebay, or even 'borrow' from a friends boat. I found these Dutch DIY ones which look interesting at about a grand for the kit. Would be a pain to make, but the process could be really useful if repairs were ever needed. Anyone tried these before?

 

[auditdata]

Hold your horses SVenglishTommy before you make a decision.
Yachting World Atlantic Gear Test
Autopilots 83% of the fleet
Wind self Steering 15% of the fleet
Reliability rating Autopilots 85%
Reliability rating Wind self Steering 69%
I could work out the overall Ease of use score and Value for money but on eyeballing the figures seems clear Autopilots would score higher on both.
You can't argue with statistics!!!!!!

Clive

 

[noelex]

Hold your horses SVenglishTommy before you make a decision.
Yachting World Atlantic Gear Test
Autopilots 83% of the fleet
Wind self Steering 15% of the fleet
Reliability rating Autopilots 85%
Reliability rating Wind self Steering 69%
I could work out the overall Ease of use score and Value for money but on eyeballing the figures seems clear Autopilots would score higher on both.
You can't argue with statistics!!!!!!

Clive

As a general observation of long distance cruising boats larger, more expensive and newer boats are very rarely fitted with wind vanes.

 

[Anne Hulbert]

Hold your horses SVenglishTommy before you make a decision.
Yachting World Atlantic Gear Test
Autopilots 83% of the fleet
Wind self Steering 15% of the fleet
Reliability rating Autopilots 85%
Reliability rating Wind self Steering 69%
I could work out the overall Ease of use score and Value for money but on eyeballing the figures seems clear Autopilots would score higher on both.
You can't argue with statistics!!!!!!

Clive

Should point out that you have picked only one year, whereas I can remember, when still in England reading these articles, that other years showed the opposite - overall wind vanes more reliable.

The great majority of non-ARC boats and long-term cruisers have wind vanes which must tell you something.

The well-known makes are very expensive. We have a Windpilot from Germany which has the advantages of only costing about £2k, a very neat system (no great cage), can pull blade out of the water so does not affect manoeuvring, easily dismountable for storage, maker very helpful and efficient, disadvantage - it doesn't act as emergency rudder.

Whichever you end up with, make sure it's the right size for your boat and be aware that they can be difficult and frustrating to get set up right - sail plan must be balanced and blade angle critical. Once set up they are fantastic - crossed the Atlantic last year with no problems.

Good luck.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Whichever you end up with, make sure it's the right size for your boat and be aware that they can be difficult and frustrating to get set up right - sail plan must be balanced and blade angle critical. Once set up they are fantastic - crossed the Atlantic last year with no problems.

I guess that it is precisley that point that figured in the reliabillity ie it would not hold a course without attention. I won't go into who sails in the ARC and what is their experience and how long have they had the boat.

 

[Athene V30]

Certainly a wind vane type is a large cost and big installation job and is very vulnerable to damage by following seas.

My wind vane has 8 bolts to hold it onto the transom - took me about 2 hours to drill holes and fit with the help of my then 10yo in the stern locker holding the nuts tight.

I sail solo most of the time and use the wind vane as first choice once out of restricted waters (in a steady wind) or at any time (other than F2 or less from astern) once out at sea. The tiller pilots (I carry two just in case) are used when motoring, when a compass heading is essential (crossing TSS) and when hoisting / lowering sail.

Second hand wind vanes dont have to cost the earth.

 

[jordanbasset]

Hold your horses SVenglishTommy before you make a decision.
Yachting World Atlantic Gear Test
Autopilots 83% of the fleet
Wind self Steering 15% of the fleet
Reliability rating Autopilots 85%
Reliability rating Wind self Steering 69%
I could work out the overall Ease of use score and Value for money but on eyeballing the figures seems clear Autopilots would score higher on both.
You can't argue with statistics!!!!!!

Clive

Thanks for the info

 

[KellysEye]

>As a general observation of long distance cruising boats larger, more expensive and newer boats are very rarely fitted with wind vanes.

Hydrovane make vanes for boats up to 60 feet and we've seen some that size with them. From what I've heard many of the big boats carry two autopilots.

 

[SvenglishTommy]

Interesting stats, but I am sure a lot of those boats are new and well crewed. Single handed on an older boat without a wind vane would probably be a little foolhardy.

I imagine the people having problems with wind vanes are not balancing the boat properly first. As I understand it wind vanes are designed to tweak the boat back on course rather than steer it like an autopilot.

Almost all of the boats more commonly associated with long distance single handed sailing I've looked at have had self steering, so I guess because I'm looking at a different type of boat I'll have to add the cost of self steering to my budget.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Interesting stats, but I am sure a lot of those boats are new and well crewed. Single handed on an older boat without a wind vane would probably be a little foolhardy.

I imagine the people having problems with wind vanes are not balancing the boat properly first. As I understand it wind vanes are designed to tweak the boat back on course rather than steer it like an autopilot.

Almost all of the boats more commonly associated with long distance single handed sailing I've looked at have had self steering, so I guess because I'm looking at a different type of boat I'll have to add the cost of self steering to my budget.

You have it in one!

 

[Conachair]

Hold your horses SVenglishTommy before you make a decision.
Yachting World Atlantic Gear Test
Autopilots 83% of the fleet
Wind self Steering 15% of the fleet
Reliability rating Autopilots 85%
Reliability rating Wind self Steering 69%
I could work out the overall Ease of use score and Value for money but on eyeballing the figures seems clear Autopilots would score higher on both.
You can't argue with statistics!!!!!!

Clive

bit more to it than that....


http://windpilot.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/ARC-survey-pt-1.pdf

Reliability issues not due to any breakages but quite a few talking of bad installation.

... but
they can be complex and tricky to master,
especially if you struggle to maintain sail
balance, and ARC participants consistently
have problems with them. Mounting,
testing and thoroughly understanding
them before setting off from the
Canaries should be as crucial as any
other equipment on board.....

 

[Blue Fox]

I sailed the last couple of years with a Holland windvane. Fine when close hauled, but it needed a lot of wind when going with the wind - and it did not hold a very straight course. In strong following winds it couldn't cope. Enough force, but the turning of the wheel was too slow and not enough. And if I had made the wheeladaptor smaller, the meandering would have been increased.
So I mounted an electrical tillerpilot on the vane. Didn't help much - same problems.
Last year I bought a raymarine smartpilot X5. Amazing performance in all seastates. Even the amperes it uses are rather limited. Only thing is - because it works sometimes for days on end - my steering cables from wheel to quadrant have broken twice (keep them tight!).
So I now sold the windvane. But for an oceancrossing I would probably buy another one! Two years ago, on a crossing from the Caribe to Portugal on another boat, we got dirty diesel after sailing into rough weather. Engine and generator (same tank) out, so no juice for the electric autopilot. How we would have loved a windvane - steering long shifts is no fun on the ocean.

 

[JayBee]

Interesting thread. Our Danish Aries is something we wouldn't be without and not just for offshore and ocean sailing. We use ours all the time in the Firth of Clyde and day sailing on the west coast of Scotland. On our tiller steered boat it is the work of about 2 seconds to engage or disengage the gear and a simple matter to tweak it when necessary on wind shifts.

We have broken two electronic autopilots and short-handed steering for hours on end is no joke. The noise these tiller pilots make is also an irritating and amplified way of listening to your batteries running down.

 

[haydude]

Electronics, once they go thats it. And that might well be it until you get to some other part of the world where you can get it fixed or get a new one.

Well, one could actually carry spares for the whole system in fact only three parts are necessary:
1) the display
2) the CPU
3) the motor/actuator

which sometimes can be sourced second hand on eBay for affordable prices.

 

[Conachair]

Well, one could actually carry spares for the whole system in fact only three parts are necessary:
1) the display
2) the CPU
3) the motor/actuator

which sometimes can be sourced second hand on eBay for affordable prices.

Think I'll stick with some string and a few jubilee clips, thinks.

 

[noelex]

(been both places elec tiller pilot has not worked since a close strike off south america with a thousand miles to go)

A friend of mine purchased 3 for a single handed trip to the Azores.....they all packed up!!
He ended up hand steering.

A few years back a guy came into our marina in Orkney, his second stop due to total autopilot failure on a none-stop, single handed, round Britain sailing attempt! The response he had from Raymarine was that the tiller pilots he used, (on a boat well inside their specified displacement) were not intended for continuous use.

I have had two tillerpilots pack up over the last four seasons.

We have broken two electronic autopilots and short-handed steering for hours on end is no joke. The noise these tiller pilots make is also an irritating and amplified way of listening to your batteries running down.

There are a lot of reports on this post of failure of tillerpilots. These need to be distinguished from wheel pilots and under deck pilots. They are all autopilots, but only the latter is suitable for offshore sailing. Tillerpiots are very unreliable in offshore sailing and in my experience are unlikely to survive a single voyage.
In contrast well sized and installed under deck pilots have become very reliable.

Have a look at the contrast of experiences from those with under deck pilots.

I just completed a 1600 nm passage and I was on autopilot (Raymarine ST6000 Series) all the time. I used manual steering only for close quarter manouvering.

.

I sailed my 40'Bav two handed with ST6000 most of the atlantic there and back and also used an ST6000 on a 38' Sweden for several 00 miles.

Let you down in the sense of gear failure rather than running out of electric power? I have a Simrad 320 hydraulic ram to the quadrant and it has done many miles without murmur over 12 seasons.

I have a WH autopilot. http://www.whautopilots.com/ It is a rock solid unit used by fishermen Alaska.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

There are a lot of reports on this post of failure of tillerpilots. These need to be distinguished from wheel pilots and under deck pilots. They are all autopilots, but only the latter is suitable for offshore sailing. Tillerpiots are very unreliable in offshore sailing and in my experience are unlikely to survive a single voyage.
In contrast well sized and installed under deck pilots have become very reliable.

Have a look at the contrast of experiences from those with under deck pilots.

You are quite right and I said as much earlier in the thread but you miss the point. Autopilots need power which has to be generated as such they are not standalone systems. The windvane even in it's simplest form requires only a little attention from time to time and will steer the boat better than most helms. Ultimately autohelms do have more points of failure than a windvane and thus are inherently more liable to faiure.

 

[jordanbasset]

There are a lot of reports on this post of failure of tillerpilots. These need to be distinguished from wheel pilots and under deck pilots. They are all autopilots, but only the latter is suitable for offshore sailing. Tillerpiots are very unreliable in offshore sailing and in my experience are unlikely to survive a single voyage.
In contrast well sized and installed under deck pilots have become very reliable.

Have a look at the contrast of experiences from those with under deck pilots.

This fits in with my experience, cannot remember any one mentioning a problem with wheel pilots (and others do talk about problems they have had with other pieces of equipment) and they do seem to be very reliable.
The power consumption is a valid point but mine does not appear to use too much but I suppose if you lost engine power and did not have other means of supplying electricity (solar, wind etc) then it would become an issue.

 

[noelex]

You are quite right and I said as much earlier in the thread but you miss the point. Autopilots need power which has to be generated as such they are not standalone systems. .

You do have to generate the power, but its not much, less than 50% of the amount needed for the fridge.
To look at the power required another way, switch from a bulb tricolour to an LED one and you have saved about half the power needed for the autopilot.
For many boats the extra power required is a minor increase in their offshore power budget.
In my case solar panels provide the power I need for offshore sailing, including running the autopilot which is usually steering the boat 24hrs a day.