At what size, style and sail plan does heel become manageable?

[gavin_lacey]

My late wife hated heeling but loved sailing. Her nightmare boat was a Folkboat we once owned that didnt really get into the groove until over 30 degrees of heel. Modern flatter hull shapes are much stiffer. We found that a bavaria with deep lead keel rather than standard iron one worked for us. Rarely more than 15 degrees of heel. Respectable speed at this angle.

 

[Roaring Girl]

We do have a heavy ketch (with no pilot house) and she stops at about 15 degrees and is comfortable - but we tend not to even go that far over for long due to the irritation factor.

 

[Frankie-H]

We do have a heavy ketch (with no pilot house) and she stops at about 15 degrees and is comfortable - but we tend not to even go that far over for long due to the irritation factor.

Not as heavy as ours, girls. We don't do healing very much except when too many guests stand on the same side. xx

 

[OldBawley]

Heeling is good.

A yacht or boat is made to heel. When sailing the whole thing is in balance.
With our boat, a 1947 Bawley type yacht, the second owner made a terrible mistake. The mast was lost, so they had a new one made. This time not a round one with a topmast (Steng) but a modern rectangular mast as all new yachts had. Also, the rig was modernised. From gaff to Bermudan.
In fact, half of the sail surface was taken away. While restoring the boat they also changed the keel.
This time the keel weighed 3000 kilo.
All of that on a 27 feet boat. As an extra an new engine was put in, weighing five times the old one.
I now sail a extreme stiff boat. A Bawley is in fact a fishing vessel, so extra wide. Also low free-board for ease of taking the nets in. With 20° we have the side deck in the water which is spectacular because we then have about a hand before the cockpit fills.
I reef early. That way the wife is not afraid. The speed does not change much, a reefed sail is flatter, so faster. Heeled under sail we go a lot faster than straight up on the engine. ( 4108m Perkins ) probable because the waterline gets longer.
Now for the bad part. As soon as the wind goes under 2 BF but the waves are still there, ( happens from time to time ) hell starts.
Sail surface to small to have influence, each wave pushes and pulls on that enormous keel. The huge weight of it pulls it back down. Our boat does not roll, it rocks. Violently. Hell.
In that case, sails down, and speed by diesel. That stops the rocking.
Sailing single-handed, I sometimes let the boat do what he wants. Helm free, steering with the four sails, even with the hardest gusts, he goes deck into water and then rounds up. He can sail himself.
Noticed that our boat is a he ?

 

[snowleopard]

cat's are a serious consideration, but I am not sure that we will get the right cat for our budget.

So presuming heel is less acute the bigger the yacht, within a 47 - 55ft range

A mono of that size will give you similar space to a cat of sub 40 feet and will cost more or less the same.

 

[gavin_lacey]

Rather debatable point. If you look at the exteme conditions experienced in the southern ocean. (Which I hasten to point out I have not experienced) then many of the early attempts to round the horn ended in pitch poling. Modern delta shapes seem to have less problems other than destroying keels by hitting wildlife at 30 knots. Look at mini transat boats and compare with a folkboat which haslar thought necessary to junk rig. The design of cars, boats, planes has evolved. There will always be people who hark back to an imaginary golden age but for most people modern design will win out. It is obviously important to compare similar design parameters. It would not be fair to compare a modern med cruiser built to a price with an older design built as a one off costing 20 years wages for the average person.

 

[phanakapan]

Recent experience has taught me that I actual like a LITTLE bit of heel; reef the boat appropriately, balance sail plan, get in a groove, trundle along- bit of an angle, but you know where you stand- or lean, as it were. What I can't stand is rolling- did rather too much of that downwind across the Atlantic. Yuk. Need to sort that out somehow before our next legs across the Pacific.

 

[lenseman]

. . . . . What I can't stand is rolling- did rather too much of that downwind across the Atlantic. Yuk. Need to sort that out somehow before our next legs across the Pacific.

A spinnaker or a cruising chute is the way to go under those conditions. You will have to watch for chaffing of the Spinnaker halyard over time as they come out of the top sheaf at quite a sharp angle relative to the block at the top of the mast.

Mains and foresails just slam and tear in ocean swell with little or no wind.

 

[tri39]

With multihulls the sailing advantage enjoyed by tris is related to the fact that they do heel!
It certainly helps sailing in light airs. Cruising cats with both hulls in the water all the time can be very sticky.
A mono and in fact any boat (even a cat) has to heel to generate some righting moment.
But the sweet spot will will not be far over. Reefing from that point will not reduce speed.
In fact my boat may go faster when reefed! Smaller sails are better shaped.
I'm afraid some skippers are testosterone victims and enjoy scaring crew.
If your family hate heeling and you want to continue sailing you should consider a multi.
Second hand examples do not have to cost a fortune.

 

[Tomahawk]

Hi all

This may sound like a really silly question and it is slightly, but not totally .....

So cat's are a serious consideration, but I am not sure that we will get the right cat for our budget.

The problem with a cat is not really the money.. There are plenty of cats less than 40 ft with as much space as a 50ft mono... which do not cost too much... The problem is finding a pretty one... Many cats simply look like bricks with a sail on top until they get over 50 ft long ... Then they do become expensive..

Keep looking and you will find! We did and did...

 

[Tranona]

Jokes aside - are not sail boats that are initially tender, usually overall more sea-worthy?
Folkboat and derivatives as an example?
Much harder to capsize than the modern pregnant guppies?

Capsizing is not really an issue in practical terms - when did you last hear of a cruising monohull of any type capsize?

The problem is more about comfort, not only the angle of heel which some people have difficulty with, but with motion. Narrower, more heavily ballasted boats tend to have a more predictable motion, flatter bottomed, wide boats tend to bounce around more as they are more "on" than "in" the water.

 

[Tranona]

Hey thanks for explaining that. Makes sense to me now.
I guess with the capsizing I was thinking of gales offshore, middle of the atlantic type of thing - which obviously shouldn't affect the coastal sailor out for a weekend sail.

Neither does it affect offshore sailors any more - or less - than coastal sailors. Incidents involving capsize are very rare anywhere, and are just as likely to happen close to shore as in the middle of the ocean. Some well known examples in familiar waters as the Needles channel and the French Atlantic coast as well as the major incidents like the 1979 Fastnet.

 

[duncan99210]

Only time I've ever been close to capsizing in a keel boat was off the Casquets, Alderney. Wind over tide in a force 8, we got picked up by a rouge wave and dumped down on our side. Nasty incident, as the helm got knocked overboard and we had a fine time getting him back on board at the end of his lifeline. And that was within about 3 miles of the lighthouse. So inshore don't always mean nice and safe!

 

[Sundowner Portofino]

Get a new wife?

Just back from holiday and catching up - lol she31 - but would cost to much

 

[Sundowner Portofino]

Just caught up on the posts, thanks again for all the thoughts and ideas.

Food for thought on many points - re multi-hulls sub 40 ft having the same space as a 50ft mono - yes they probably do.

But do you not then just swap heel for hobby horsing at that length, not sure which is lesser of two weevils. A pal who knows more about multi's than I do advised that it is not until mid- 40ft multis that you get a nice motion.

But they may well depend on the design, or maybe completely wrong.

We will get there

 

[KellysEye]

>Jokes aside - are not sail boats that are initially tender, usually overall more sea-worthy?

It depends on what you mean by seaworthy. I would say the heavier build and displacement boats are more seaworthy because they have a more comfortable motion, don't heel as easily; don't round up in a gust, don't broach and don't surf.

On the capsize front there are three main ways for it to happen: keel falls off; a breaking wave slightly larger than you beam can roll you if broad reaching; a breaking wave slightly longer than your length can pitchpole you if going downwind. Nothing you can do about the first but the the latter are eminently avoidable.