Kukri
Well-Known Member
Seconded.
At risk of starting an anchor thread... a windlass and chain question...
- Thread starter Kukri
- Start date
Seconded.
aussi
Well-Known Member
Rule #1 of YBW forums: You will always start an anchor thread, irrespective of what your original topic was. This is because any part of the boat is at all times indirectly attached to the anchor (unless you lose your anchor, which is in itself a valid topic for an anchor thread). This one turned into an anchor thread a bit quicker because you mentioned something that is directly attached to an anchor.
Kukri
Well-Known Member
geem
Well-Known Member
I couldnt agree more! Our boat weighs 40000 lbs loaded. We use 10mm chain. You just dont need 10mm chain on a boat weighing half as much as us. It is just weight in the bow for no good reason.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
It might use a lot of amps - but for a very short time and the alternator on the engine will replace it quickly. Just the thing for those getting on in years and no need to add to your waistline by eating Fray Bentos.
As I said above things have changed a bit in the last 40 years particularly if you were using gear such as that 40 years ago. On a well found cruising boat power supply should not be a worry.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
I don't understand the mention of a kellet. If it weighs 20kg its equivalent to 20kg of chain. If you have the chain and the room just deploy more chain. attaching and dumping a 20kg weight off a crowded bow is difficult, getting it back worse. If you have an electric windlass - you touch a button and deploy 20kg in a flash.
I'm sure kellets has been done to death as well.
Mentioned earlier - a 2m snubber is no different to using all chain - the elasticity is negligible. It takes the load off the windlass, very sensible, its stops the chain rattling on the bow roller - but basically that's it. If you think it imparts much elasticity you are dreaming - think 10m minimum.
Having a windlass, or similar, at the mast is the dream, another one. Its been discussed - but apart from a very few its never done. One problem being you have a few metres of chain over the foredeck. Think lighter chain, more of it so you can dispense with the daft kellet. Consider an alloy Spade. Have long snubbers Retired climbing rope (from climbing centres) is ideal as as snubber for your size of yacht - and is cheap or free.
As Tranona has said anchoring technology has moved on, particularly since introduction of Spade and Fortress - much of what you read is based on 40 year old, or older, technology and practice. 40 years ago, nylon, high tensile steels, cheap small electric windlass, alloy anchors, hi tech fibres (there must be more) were all a dream (and are now all part of modern anchoring). Now they are, relatively, cheaply available - but the 40 year old practice is still trotted out. It worked , but so did fisherman anchors and manilla rope!
If you are investing - do so with 21st century technology.
I'm sure kellets has been done to death as well.
Mentioned earlier - a 2m snubber is no different to using all chain - the elasticity is negligible. It takes the load off the windlass, very sensible, its stops the chain rattling on the bow roller - but basically that's it. If you think it imparts much elasticity you are dreaming - think 10m minimum.
Having a windlass, or similar, at the mast is the dream, another one. Its been discussed - but apart from a very few its never done. One problem being you have a few metres of chain over the foredeck. Think lighter chain, more of it so you can dispense with the daft kellet. Consider an alloy Spade. Have long snubbers Retired climbing rope (from climbing centres) is ideal as as snubber for your size of yacht - and is cheap or free.
As Tranona has said anchoring technology has moved on, particularly since introduction of Spade and Fortress - much of what you read is based on 40 year old, or older, technology and practice. 40 years ago, nylon, high tensile steels, cheap small electric windlass, alloy anchors, hi tech fibres (there must be more) were all a dream (and are now all part of modern anchoring). Now they are, relatively, cheaply available - but the 40 year old practice is still trotted out. It worked , but so did fisherman anchors and manilla rope!
If you are investing - do so with 21st century technology.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
And talking of the 21st Century and your love of the CQR (developed by a Scot, as was the Delta) - when you check out new anchor designs, look at the Knox, spectacular holding capacity, home grown in Scotland, by a Scot, using British steel, locally fabricated and galvanised.
Its difficult to overstate the performance - why it holds so well, a bit of a mystery - simply superb.
its an odd product, hardly mentioned here - but half the sales are exports. What do 'foreigners' recognise that locals are blind to?
Its difficult to overstate the performance - why it holds so well, a bit of a mystery - simply superb.
its an odd product, hardly mentioned here - but half the sales are exports. What do 'foreigners' recognise that locals are blind to?
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geem
Well-Known Member
People generally dont use enough snubber. Ours is 9 metres long but includes an oversized rubber snubber. We rarely see other boats with a snubber as long as ours. It makes the boat very comfy in windy conditions especially when it is squally and the wind is shifting about a bit.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Totally agree, except here I seldom see snubbers at all, if I do they are 2m long. Catamarans tend to have longer bridle arms - but they arms are made from substantial cordage which also has minimum elasticity.
The longer your snubber, assuming correctly sized in terms of diameter, the longer it will last and the greater the windspeed it will cope with.
Kukri
Well-Known Member
Well, it's turned into an anchor thread.
But nobody has picked up on what I said about the bow roller.
Or what I said about anchoring on a short scope of heavy chain.
And no, a kellet is not, at all, the same as veering more chain.
But nobody has picked up on what I said about the bow roller.
Or what I said about anchoring on a short scope of heavy chain.
And no, a kellet is not, at all, the same as veering more chain.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Tell me briefly about kellets, if you don't mind. I'd welcome being educated.
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RichardS
N/A
+1
Veering more chain, if space permits, is always helpful whereas using a kellet/angel is a complete waste of time and money.
Richard
Kukri
Well-Known Member
Kukri
Well-Known Member
Kukri
Well-Known Member
Kukri
Well-Known Member
Kukri
Well-Known Member
The book is "Yacht Cruising", by Claud Worth. It was "the Bible" of the pre-WW2 yachtsman.
I see we have an Expert who has pronounced that angels/kellets/whatever are useless, and I am sure he is quite right, but in the parallel universe that I sail in, they work. You do need to use quite a lot of weight, and the slider does need to be the right shape. You can get a nice bronze one that fits over the chain in two halves, but I also had a galvanised one from Daveys which was useless.
Because all the weight is in one place, rather than spread along the length of the chain, the effect is quite different. The weights will only lift off the bottom for a few moments at a time, just whilst the head of a sea goes past, and unlike a snubber the load on the anchor is coming along the seabed.
And here is Worth's mast windlass. I have sailed with one of these, on the smack yacht "Bird of Dawning", and it works really well. The problem as someone has said is the chain running over the foredeck and usually making a mess of the fore hatch! The benefits are that the weight of the stowed chain is in a better place, you can stand up and you are not perched precariously at the sharp end of a pitching foredeck!
I see we have an Expert who has pronounced that angels/kellets/whatever are useless, and I am sure he is quite right, but in the parallel universe that I sail in, they work. You do need to use quite a lot of weight, and the slider does need to be the right shape. You can get a nice bronze one that fits over the chain in two halves, but I also had a galvanised one from Daveys which was useless.
Because all the weight is in one place, rather than spread along the length of the chain, the effect is quite different. The weights will only lift off the bottom for a few moments at a time, just whilst the head of a sea goes past, and unlike a snubber the load on the anchor is coming along the seabed.
And here is Worth's mast windlass. I have sailed with one of these, on the smack yacht "Bird of Dawning", and it works really well. The problem as someone has said is the chain running over the foredeck and usually making a mess of the fore hatch! The benefits are that the weight of the stowed chain is in a better place, you can stand up and you are not perched precariously at the sharp end of a pitching foredeck!
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Neeves
Well-Known Member
But I might add:
You cannot, or I believe you cannot, consider chain, or shackles or anchor in complete isolation. All the components need to be matched - so to talk about chain without mentioning anchors (or vice versa) might miss salient points.
Technology of 40 years ago and earlier was based on years of experience (usually hard won). Since then technology has moved on, with more years of hard won experience - and recent analysis, with that extra 40 years of hard won experience, including new anchor developments - would be silly to ignore.
You cannot, or I believe you cannot, consider chain, or shackles or anchor in complete isolation. All the components need to be matched - so to talk about chain without mentioning anchors (or vice versa) might miss salient points.
Technology of 40 years ago and earlier was based on years of experience (usually hard won). Since then technology has moved on, with more years of hard won experience - and recent analysis, with that extra 40 years of hard won experience, including new anchor developments - would be silly to ignore.
Kukri
Well-Known Member
Yes, it's all a system.
I sang the praises of the modern bow roller a couple of pages back. But you very seldom see them. People spend silly money on clever anchors and watch chain and don't think about where most of the friction is located. And then they weaken the whole thing by adding an unnecessary swivel...
I sang the praises of the modern bow roller a couple of pages back. But you very seldom see them. People spend silly money on clever anchors and watch chain and don't think about where most of the friction is located. And then they weaken the whole thing by adding an unnecessary swivel...
Neeves
Well-Known Member
and stainless steel, unrated, shackles.
The only notched bow rollers I have seen, where the vertical link fits in a slot, are ancient - so hardly new technology (but simple technology that is ignored).