As an Instructor and a generally nosy person who spelling is crap.

[scottie]

I was raised in a sailing family first boat was an 19th century gaff cutter with a sailing dinghy then a 41ft Milne sloop which I ended up sailing with a one legged seventy year old father as a teenager then discovered girls
Met a bloke looking for an extra crew for overnight race and sailed with him for 5 boats and 40 years
Volvo Penta were looking for someone to drive a rib for a national competition and I offered to do the Clyde day they supplied a RIB and the Volvo press dept a nice new tow car having participated in the CCC Scottish series for many years I approached them and asked if a RIB would be of any use (they had never used them before) so after some thought they said bring it up and we will see
I decided that for the next year I would do my PB2 which at that time was linked to safety boat

 

[Walusotu]

Day skipper -> YM theory -> YM practical -> YM ocean (with the necessary accessory certs). Lots of solo passages.

 

[Boathook]

My dad taught me a lot and he used to do JOG and Fasnet in the 50's and early 60's.
I have done the RYA yacht master theory, VHF, radar and a few other courses. Also have the RYA ICC from the days when no test was required plus done the theory for canals in Europe.

 

[wully1]

I got an RYA day boat certificate many, many years ago when in the (fighting) navy. Then got a bunch of other RYA and BWSF instructor certificates when working in a watersports Centre.
A good few years later bought a sailing cruiser and after a couple of years thought about doing the Yachtmaster thing but on reflection realised it would be a waste of time and money. Anything worthwhile I would learn was already learned as far as I could see.
Then again... I don’t know what I don’t know but I haven’t sunk so far.

Touch wood..

 

[Kurrawong_Kid]

Err, you have to be a qualified Yachtmaster Offshore to be assessed as an instructor. ?

I repeat my point. The sailing "centres" are more interested in attracting new "graduates" to be assistant instructors, then instructors, then senior instructors rather than encouraging new sailors to join a Club( with a few exceptions!)

[/QUOTE]

 

[sailorman]

if not allowed please delete
I was wondering what training have you all had if any?
Most do ICC or day skipper
and VHF.
Just wondering I did Dayskipper theory and YM theory , Dayskipper practical and VHF, it was not until I wanted to teach it that I went any further with course and exams etc.

No formal training & today its mainly a money spinner

 

[sailorman]

? “Those who can do, those who can’t teach, those who can’t teach, teach teachers” . Never ceases to amaze me how many who do RYA courses end up as instructors. I surmise the RYA “centres” find it profitable to recruit and teach instructors rather than encourage new participants to the sport to join clubs

Dont tell em wot yer day job woz Kid ??????????

 

[laika]

I repeat my point. The sailing "centres" are more interested in attracting new "graduates" to be assistant instructors, then instructors, then senior instructors rather than encouraging new sailors to join a Club( with a few exceptions!)

[Edited because my original post sounded a bit sarky which was not my intention, sorry]

I'm not certain I understand the point. I *think* you're saying that sea schools should be encouraging people to join clubs rather than to progress to instructor qualifications.

Aside from my suspicion that the number of people becoming instructors is very small compared to those taking courses, is it surprising that a business encourages people to use its services rather than seek alternatives? Moreover for many of us who haven't grown up in "sailing club society", sea schools are a straightforward way to learn to sail without having to rely on the whims of random strangers with random qualifications who may be from an utterly different social group. Moreover, after club fees and "shared costs" boat owners may request for letting you crew, it can work out a lot more expensive for no guaranteed result. I briefly joined a club a few years ago. They were interested in racing and *nothing* else. Few of the racing crews seemed to have VHF or first aid certs, let alone dayskipper. When I proposed we should run some of the one-day shorebased courses to plug proficiency gaps I was told the local sea school was a racing sponsor and therefore we shouldn't "compete" with them. I didn't renew my membership.

 

[Kurrawong_Kid]

Not wishing to get personal, but in all disciplines and activities in life, the above quote is simply a worn-out piece of nonsense.

I was taught English at school by a man who was already (and remains) a highly-accomplished author (and still a school-teacher), and physics by a man who had been at the forefront of British nuclear research in the 1960s and 70s until ill-health prompted a change in career.

In my professional life I was able to attract adult students to train privately with me precisely because I had a demonstrably successful parallel career as a practitioner.

In my hobby as a leisure sailor I was successfully and efficiently taught a myriad of skills (YM Theory, DS Practical, YM Prep, RYA day courses, etc) by capable experienced sailors etc, have learnt a huge amount more courtesy of the vast amount of practical experience (amounting to probably several millennia of sailing or boat-maintaining lifetimes) freely given by members of these forums, not to mention what I've learnt from reading a whole wall of sailing books by every last sailor or mariner who ever did anything from crawling around East Coast ditches, to spending years before the mast or serving on a warship, to single-handing a paper-boat around the world and who all successfully committed their knowledge and experience to words.

Not everyone has the patience or personality to make a career of teaching, but to do so actually deepens one's own knowledge and skills in the process of devising and honing the most efficient methods of imparting that expertise to students or a wider audience.

Agreed with your sentiments. I did 37 yrs. and 266 very satisfying days in the profession. However all professions have humour directed at them in one form or another eg. The Navy Lark, Dad's Army, Domby and Son, let alone politicians! etc. etc. However in post#46 I was using the "worn out piece of nonsense" as a literal illustration of what I consider a trend which does the sport little service. Although there are some notable exceptions many "Training Centres" operate in a parallel existence to the Clubs which are the backbone of the sport, especially inland.

 

[fisherman]

Not really to do with leisure boating, but fishermen inc me have to have firefighting at sea, survival at sea, first aid at sea, safety at sea, VHF. I also have YM theory. In boats over 16m requirements are much greater, navigation, stability etc. There should be nav for all say I.

 

[Kurrawong_Kid]

I for one am as confused by this as the last time you made it. By 'sailing "centres"' do you mean sea schools? And what exactly do you think is happening that is so bad? Are you claiming some are using hard sell tactics to convince recently qualified Yachtmasters to do cruising instructor courses against their will? I personally have no interest in joining a club. I was interested in giving a sea school money to teach me to sail. Once they've done that I don't understand why you think it's their job to get people to sign over another wedge of cash for formal dinners, hog roasts, dixieland jazz evenings and petty politics.

I'm probably completely misunderstanding you (sorry). Can you be more explicit about what you think is wrong?

I for one am as confused by this as the last time you made it. By 'sailing "centres"' do you mean sea schools? And what exactly do you think is happening that is so bad? Are you claiming some are using hard sell tactics to convince recently qualified Yachtmasters to do cruising instructor courses against their will? I personally have no interest in joining a club. I was interested in giving a sea school money to teach me to sail. Once they've done that I don't understand why you think it's their job to get people to sign over another wedge of cash for formal dinners, hog roasts, dixieland jazz evenings and petty politics.

I'm probably completely misunderstanding you (sorry). Can you be more explicit about what you think is wrong?

I am directing my comments largely, but not exclusively, at RYA centres located on inland waters. 000's and 000's have done the Level 1 and 2 courses over the years but the number who take up the sport is distressingly small despite many clubs having boats for hire, or the option for owners to "day sail" their own boat. On many inland waters sailing can only take place when rescue facilities are in place and that in most cases relies on club volunteers. On the coast clubs are equally important. They provide marinas, e.g. R.N.Y.C at Blythe, R.N.S.Y.C. at Lowestoft, RHYC at Woolverstone, I.S.C. at Cowes; moorings as at S.S.C, TRSC in Plymouth, SCYC at Abersoch etc.etc. Many, but not all, the Training Centres seem to me to fail to visualise the connection between teaching the competences and supporting the voluntary infrastructure upon which much of the sport survives. This disconnect, in my view, is very prejudicial to the future of the sport: especially since surveys show that currently the age profile is skewed to the elderly. It's not all about hog roasts!

 

[prv]

Club marinas exist, but are a rarity compared to commercial ones or harbour pontoons. I don’t know why you list the Island Sailing Club; they have a landing pontoon for temporary use by their members, but no marina AFAIK.

Club moorings are an important resource but I’d hardly say that “much of the sport survives” because of them. At a guess I’d say the majority of boats around here are in commercial marinas, followed by harbour authority moorings and only then by club ones.

Pete

 

[Kurrawong_Kid]

Club marinas exist, but are a rarity compared to commercial ones or harbour pontoons. I don’t know why you list the Island Sailing Club; they have a landing pontoon for temporary use by their members, but no marina AFAIK.

Club moorings are an important resource but I’d hardly say that “much of the sport survives” because of them. At a guess I’d say the majority of boats around here are in commercial marinas, followed by harbour authority moorings and only then by club ones.

Pete

I bow to your superior knowledge of ISC. Last time I visited was in 1965 or so and memory a bit distant but I do remember landing there. Must have been on the visitors' pontoon. Of course the commercial operations predominate but a surprising amount of moorings are provided by clubs. Even in Soton Water are not the moorings off Hythe run by a club? and does not Marchwood Y.C.also? You know the area better than me!

 

[prv]

Even in Soton Water are not the moorings off Hythe run by a club? and does not Marchwood Y.C.also? You know the area better than me!

Yes - but vastly more boats are kept in the marinas at Town Quay, Ocean Village, Shamrock Quay, and Kemp’s, the dry stack up at Driver’s, and the nearly a dozen small yards with walk-ashore pontoons spread along the Itchen.

Pete

 

[laika]

I am directing my comments largely, but not exclusively, at RYA centres located on inland waters.

Apologies for any apparent negative tone in what you replied to (see above amended version just before you posted). I have little experience of inland sailing so cannot comment on that. Regarding coastal infrastructure isn't this mostly something of value to the "club" community? I tend to avoid the complication of club pontoons which welcome visiting yachtspeople from other clubs when I can just moor to a harbour authority mooring instead.

I'm still not sure I grasp the argument accurately but from the last post I think (if I may paraphrase, correct me if wrong) it's roughly:
- Sea schools do not result in the same "conversion rate" to long term commitment to sailing as club membership
- Sea schools encourage progress up a ladder which ultimately creates more instructors, perpetuating the scheme to the detriment of the alternative route into sailing via clubs who contribute a wider "ecosystem" than just training.

With the understanding that I may still have got it wrong...Regarding "conversion rate", doesn't club membership imply some pre-commitment? You often have to go through waiting list, selection process, then pay membership and possibly a joining fee. People from "sailing families" are gong to induce their kids into the club. Conversely sea schools cater for the thousands of people who lack that commitment but are "sailing curious": Maybe thousands do a course then never progress it but some (like me) stick with it who would never have joined a club, so it's not competition to clubs, it's an addition. I think the numbers doing yachtmaster instructor are probably pretty small in comparison with dayskipper.

I'm not knocking mentoring within a club. I am saying the existence of sea schools providing training is a Good Thing without which I wouldn't be posting here now (which some may consider a Bad Thing ;-). Moreover, reading International forums like cruisersforum I note people fly in from all over the world to do RYA training in the UK.

FWIW I did have plans to do a cruising instructor course earlier this year before All Of This. It's 15 years since my yachtmaster so I'll claim I haven't been brainwashed into direct progression

 

[powerskipper]

I am directing my comments largely, but not exclusively, at RYA centres located on inland waters. 000's and 000's have done the Level 1 and 2 courses over the years but the number who take up the sport is distressingly small despite many clubs having boats for hire, or the option for owners to "day sail" their own boat. On many inland waters sailing can only take place when rescue facilities are in place and that in most cases relies on club volunteers. On the coast clubs are equally important. They provide marinas, e.g. R.N.Y.C at Blythe, R.N.S.Y.C. at Lowestoft, RHYC at Woolverstone, I.S.C. at Cowes; moorings as at S.S.C, TRSC in Plymouth, SCYC at Abersoch etc.etc. Many, but not all, the Training Centres seem to me to fail to visualise the connection between teaching the competences and supporting the voluntary infrastructure upon which much of the sport survives. This disconnect, in my view, is very prejudicial to the future of the sport: especially since surveys show that currently the age profile is skewed to the elderly. It's not all about hog roasts!

As an RYA instructor , I have worked hard to get to where I am, and in 20 odd years of teaching now, I have encouraged maybe 25 people to think about going into instructing. Some do some don't . If school encouraged every person who came though instructional courses to teach there would be a lot more instructor than there are. To be an instructor , Its a I can do it and explain to you how I did it at least 4 different ways .

 

[prv]

I'm still not sure I grasp the argument accurately but from the last post I think (if I may paraphrase, correct me if wrong) it's roughly:
- Sea schools do not result in the same "conversion rate" to long term commitment to sailing as club membership
- Sea schools encourage progress up a ladder which ultimately creates more instructors,

I thought he was complaining that sea schools don’t pressure (or at least encourage) their pupils to join clubs at the end of their course.

Pete

 

[powerskipper]

I thought he was complaining that sea schools don’t pressure (or at least encourage) their pupils to join clubs at the end of their course.

Pete

I do.

 

[prv]

I do.

I'm sure KK will be very happy

I thought his expectation that they should was somewhat rude and entitled, but ?‍?

Pete

 

[Uricanejack]

I was about to say, I’ve never joined a club. Which is not true I joined the Ocean Youth Club. It’s also how I learned I enjoyed sailing and learned how to sail.
Ive never joined the traditional yacht club. Just not for me.

The first sailing course I took was an instructor course. Which required me to challenge and pass all the required parts of the course I would be instructing.
The instructor course I did was a course run at cost by the sailing school, with the obvious goal of supplying instructors for the school.
so I learned the required syllabus plus the sailing schools syllabus and ways.

The point. A sailing school is a business. One of the prime goals of the sailing school was to train clients who could be encouraged to ,charter from the charter company associated with the sailing school.
simple survival of the business encourage people to learn to sail and do the required course to be eligible to charter.

For a sailing school to encourage people to join a club would be self defeating. unless the sailing school was associated with a club.
The business model of the sailing school I worked for seams to work quite well 30 odd years later they are still in business with a good reputation.
Many former students probably do join sailing clubs. If it suited them.

As it turns out very few, go further than basic sailing and basic navigation course. Although higher levels exist.
Some students do like to rerun for specific add on like Diesel engines or spinnakers ect.

The RYA system appears to me as an outsider to benefit from a well regarded tier or progression of course for a student to be encouraged to take after completed basic course.
The obvious goal for a sailing school would be repeat customers.

Some of who may well go through the progressive program with the goal of becoming instructors.

So I suppose there are several options on how you can choose to learn how to sail.
For some people it was growing up with a boat in the family, possibly a member of a club.
for others.
joining a club later in life and learning by sailing with the club.
Night classes.
On line course.
or for those of us who don’t have those connections or the time to spare.

We can go to a comercial sailing school.

The more people who go to sailing schools and learn how to sail, the more people who are available to join clubs.

My observation, if a sailing school primary reason to exists is to train instructors. It probably won’t last long.

Those which last probably run a pyramid scheme teaching lots of entry level course and a small number of higher level course all the way up to a few instructor course.