Are you safer sailing with a rally?

SimonJ

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I have recently spent some time in company with some participants in a leg of the recent so called Biscay Triangle Rally which started from Torbay earlier in the summer and featured in an article in the October edition of YM. They had some interesting but worrying feedback and comment, which being very nice people they are reluctant to voice more publicly! They had joined the rally (at some expense) for the first leg from Torbay to La Corunna because they were led to believe that would be sailing in company and it would safer and reassuring for them having little experience either offshore or at night. Their 3 year old boat (40ft of UK manufacture) was checked out before the start and although they were given advice with regard to certain safety recommendations eg fit main hatchboards with securing arrangements and the sliding hatch with inside/outside locking (both post'79 Fastnet requirements for racing) - they did not HAVE to comply nor were they checked again before setting off for the Biscay.
In the event, surprise, surprise, once away from Torbay they did not see another participant until arriving in La Corunna nor could they raise any participant on their VHF (which works well).
Their prime objective in participating was not met. They also had heavy weather in the Bay. No surprise either but no forced compliance with safety items?
Anyone, with experience, who has tried to remain in touch with another boat on a long offshore passage will know it takes an enormous effort and lots of preplanning IN ADDITION to normal passage workload. This would typically involve an agreement (or even an organisers briefing?) to aim for common waypoints (difficult to achieve in practice anyway in the Western Approaches where wind direction/strength often changes frequently) as well as an understanding of the need to change course and speed by sail change or whatever just to keep close. At night it can also be quite stressful with another boat nearby all the time.
I have also talked to some smaller ARC entrants (often flying what some cruisers are now, rather cruelly, calling the "Learner Flag") who believe they will be safer "in the company of other boats" - do they really think that if they have a problem in theeir 33-35ft boats the much bigger, faster boats will turn up wind (in the Trades) to come back to help them mid ocean?
My belief is that once you go out to sea "you are on your own", the fact that there may be other boats doing the same thing may give your morale a boost but, ordinarily, spread over hundreds of miles of ocean, not much more.
If you are on your own you also free to choose on your terms the day and time of departure - rallies and races invariably have to set off on predetermined dates regardless of conditions actually forecast or prevailing.
My concern is that while purporting to promote safety (in number, standards, knowledge etc) rally organisers ARC, Blue Water et al are actually encouraging inexperieced and ill prepared boats and crews to go beyond their capability. I have even read recently of the RYA running cross channel rallies to provide reassurance making passages in company.
And why do I care - well selfishly, I admit, I know that it is my insurance premium (if I can still get cover) will go up as a result of any further "accidents" and there will be no case for not conforming with some other EU countries for (what I regard as) irksome inspections and certification/classification.
Am I alone in my views?


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tcm

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This is interesting, simon.

I have often wondered if a boating rally encourages people to go who really should not go - a bad thing. Or, whether it encourages those who are over-cautious to venture further, yet within their capabilities - a good thing.

The relatively low accident rates might indicate the latter is thankfully true. But I agree that the several hundred quid entry fee for some rallies (easily eaten up in admin, berthing etc in the case of most rallies) gives the impression that the unthinkables are being sorted out, or insured against, somehow. When in fact, they ain't. And indeed the pre-rally jollity might better be spent with a bit more crerw and boat preparation.

I do not think it would be out of order for rally orgainsers to speak with people individually, and certainly more bloodily - to the effect that you are indeed on your own, although iof course we'll do what we can, if we can. Rallying is a primarily social vehicle rather than a breakdown safety net.

I fully understand those who feel better out of it as it can simply increase the likelihood of an accident, breakdown or other mishap at some point in a trip - more often than not on another boat.



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kidnapped

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I was contemplating doing this rally next year with a mixture of experienced/semi experienced crew, probably rotating crew at the stopover ports. Sailing in company being a 'morale' booster as things can get tousy in the Bay.
However I totally agree that this type of rally should not be started when gale force winds are imminent .... strong winds are likely to be encountered on the trip .... but why start in these conditions? I thought 'enjoyment' was part of the deal!

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StugeronSteve

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I've always assumed the main safety advantage is in the pre-trip safety inspections and experienced briefings provided. Whether skippers comply with the advice cannot be legislated for, however, I'm sure most crews would vote with their kit bags if a boat was pronounced unsafe and the skipper decided to press on regardless. Another big advantage to a first timer has to be the bureaucracy busting backup that must be available in the destination ports.

The organizers have to take responsibility for calling the shots on weather when they want a group start. My marina neighbour (dark sider but nice) had his summer mobo rally (Mobo Monthly I think), to la belle France, delayed by several days until the organizers felt the conditions were safe for the broad spectrum of boats taking part.

Personally I hate the responsibility of trying to drive in company wih another car, paying too much attention to the mirror, trying to read traffic lights etc. is very stressful. Attempting to keep station with another sailing boat, even of similar design and size, over any distance must be nigh on impossible.

These events should come with some honest advertising. Yes you will have loads of help before you go, yes you will get back up and some good partying in the destination ports, but once you are out at sea you will be on your own!

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LadyInBed

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Well put, I totally agree. A rally is one thing - in practice it's everyone for themselves.
Sailing in company is, to my mind, something totally different - a frequent radio schedule, matching course and speed to keep each other in sight, turning to help if requested. This is difficult to achieve without a fair bit of preparation and practice.

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vyv_cox

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To be fair to the organisers, I'm not sure that they offer a lot more than a party at the start and finish, pre-passage inspection of safety equipment and such-like. It would be a brave and ambitious organisation that offered a "mother hen" facility to participants.

Having done a fair bit of cruising in company in the past, with people I knew well, I am only too aware that there is little that they could have done to help me with non-emergency situations. The message must always be that you are on your own at sea.

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sailbadthesinner

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interesting problem is i feel you are trying to pigeon hole into a couple of categories the entire sailing community
i think your question begs that the answer is you are either safe ie you are on a well found boat with competent crew ( experience levels aside lets face everyone has a first time at all levels of the sport) who gets there under their own steam and copes with all but most catstrophic gear/weather scenarios on their own
or you
are a lucky soul who may get there, but may be found out by bad weather bad crew or bad preparation. there is a high chance you will end up in some mess or other because you are, in certain situations not safe.

but there are so many other levels
the dedicated who novices who can only plan in line with their experience to the total chancer who is lucky to make it out the harbour before his boat sinks or he hits something.
cruising in company is bound to attract the full spectrum of those who would not otherwise go to sea both the wise and the foolhardy. whilst these rallies donot guarantee safety they do carry out checks and non compliance, in some cases, means non entry. so they could be argued to be filtering some of the wreckless or ill prepared from going to sea.

you made the point that the changes suggested to the layout of your friends boat were not compulsory. so why would they expect a check up if the suggested safety changes were non comp? they gives their advice and leaves you to it seems fair to me.

i donot have the article(s) to hand but read of one cruise where the participants totally abandoned return leg in favour of cruising the coast of france.
i also read of the AZAB where about three boats retired on the start, one i think on black rock. basically the sailed straight into a gale in conditions a loner might have waited to pass, who knows? but if you read paul heiney's account it seemed like it was the perfect incentive to go singlehanded offshore and gave him the confidence he needed

at sea i feel experience is everything. i have made most of my cock ups through either lack of experience or complacency. anything that gives you access to people who have done it, or can check and advise you, i see as a good thing.
i think such things will make the safe safer, the timid better informed and more confident.
the idiots may learn a thing or two and those that never learn will remain unnaffected

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snowleopard

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having taken part in two transatlantic rallies i think i'm qualified to comment on the pros & cons.

firstly on the safety issue, the triangle organisers seem to have taken a more laissez faire approach to inspections. on the ARC you can't take part unless you pass and occasionally a boat 'goes independant' when they can't or won't meet the requirements. that said however, it's up to the skipper to see the boat is fit for the job regardless of rallies.

i've never come across a rally where boats try to sail in formation for more than a few hours. to do so would be foolhardy. the safety issue is about being able to contact others if things go wrong. this has happened with great success on several ARCs.

keeping in touch by radio is not difficult, you agree a time and a frequency and away you go. if you only have VHF you will have problems offshore so either you shell out for SSB or satphone or you put up & shut up.

the two biggest drawbacks about taking part in a rally are (a) the fixed itinerary, for example ARC participants miss out on the cape verdes and barbados and (b) the pressure to go on the planned date regardless of weather, reinforced by the fact that the organisers have planes to catch.

on ARC europe in 2002, a third of the fleet stayed at anchor while the rest left bermuda into a gale. i noticed on this year's biscay triangle the whole fleet told the organisers to get lost for the final leg and good for them!

finally, the saddos who like to look down their noses at those flying rally flags. there are always some who look for some reason to despise those who are different, usually without knowing the facts. in reality i met no-one who hadn't the capability to cross independantly, there were no beginners who depended on the rally to get them across.

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Peppermint

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Re:Valid Questions.

The point maybe that if you lack the confidence to do a trip solo would you feel more confident in a group. Well many would but perhaps the reality is not explained to them very well. Even with OD boats a flotila will spread. The longer the trip the longer the spread. Weather considerations can make this much worse.

What you seem to get on most rallies is some in port support and entertainment and a radio net for comfort.

The downside would appear to be that some inexperienced sailors are drawn into passages they're not ready for and while some will rise to the challenge some will be left exposed. In addition we're back to deadline sailing again, leaving around X trying to arrive at a defined place by Y which is bound to create pressures for the less able.

Further pressures are caused by the mixed boat size fleets. For open water sailing you just can't get enough boat. For comfort, load carrying, facility and safety a good big un will beat a good little un everytime.

I'm amazed that the organizers inspect boats, make recomendations, without a check to ensure compliance. This would strike you as being a litigators heaven.

If you are an inexperienced sailor, you've paid your fees, been to the dinner and then to sea it is possible that, as land drops away and the weather worsens, you might find a radio net as comforting as a cutprice liferaft.

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GeorgeP

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Sailing with a rally

Not sailed offshore with a rally before, only small, local ones. However, I get the impression they're really about the social side, plus some help with bureaucracy. Good enough reasons for me.

Having said that, wasn't there a couple in their Legend who had rudder problems, and the man who lost his brother? They may have been happy to have help turn up, even if it took a while.

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SimonJ

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Re:Valid Questions.

Perhaps I can add another element to the debate?
How do you gain your experience?
Some years ago when I started, I sailed with a variety of skippers on a range of offshore trips and then when it was judged (by others) that I had had enough experience and knew enough I was let out on my own in charge of a yacht (ie boat & crew). At the same time I read everything I could lay my hands on. Then, petrified, off I went to gain further experience building on a reasonable base. When I first crossed the channel and later the Biscay (as skipper) I had done both before with others.
Fellow cruisers I meet seem to be gaining ALL their experience by taking off on their own, in a relatively large boat, with minimal (if any) experience of crewing with others and having done little reading. The problem is many suffer from second order ignorance - they dont know what they dont know.

In my first input I mentioned two boats I had met up with after their rally - one admitted he had a problem anchoring except in thin water as he only had 30metres of anchor chain/rope! The other on one occasion I was obliged to lead in to an easy night time anchorage (he following 100yds astern) & point out a position to anchor as he had no experience of night entries. Not the first time on my cruising travels I have had to do that. Another had not realised an outboard motor is almost essential to reach shore from many cruising anchorages - and did not have one. What happened to the scrutineering and advice? Does anyone actually get turned away from these commercially organised rallies?
ARC Europe 2002, has been mentioned. I happened to be crossing at the same time from Bermuda (at the time of departure the weather looked ok by the way)and ended up providing a radio relay for one participant who was so far behind he was even out of SSB contact with the remainder. The nice(?) ARC people (to whom he had subscribed heavily) had also ceased to forecast weather for his (secretly coded) area presuming him to have been further ahead. Apparently on his circuit he had arrived too late for most of the parties. And he had a 36 ft vessel.


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Peppermint

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Re:It\'s the case that

those of us who learnt by doing, supported by picking other peoples brains and reading books have a different approach to RYA taught sailors.

If your not a boat owner your sailing life starts with various intensive learning experiences and a bit of crewing or chartering if your lucky.

I favour the dinghy, cruising in a small cruiser in a local area you can learn, slowly going further afield, then doing some courses when you need extra input from a third party.

You learn about anchoring, getting ashore, the heads, crew management and seamanship by doing it.

So to answer your question gain experience by cruising and extending your area at a rate that you feel happy with.



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Boatman

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Snowleopard,

You don't say whether you have done the trip outside a rally org. I am about to embark on the trip single handed, obviously outside a rally org. On my way down to the Canaries I met numerious couples+ waiting for crews etc who were planning the trip with various organizations. My overall impression was that most boats while well equipped were lacking sea miles (ie experience) varying from ok to downright unbelievably bad.

Maybe it's my conservatisim or the reality, only time will tell. What struck me as the biggest problem was individuals that didn't understand how the most basic components on their boats functioned and had no chance or repairing said items. Along with skippers lacking even basic weather forecasting skills and totally relying on internet interpretations which I have found to be often less than useful.

Additionally the total reliance on laptops combined with radio gear with no real knowledge backup as to why it didn't function (and it often didn't) was increadible.

Maybe it's me but I think the rallys have encouraged (along with the boom of the last 10 years) a growing crowd of dreamers. The numbers of boats for sale in the Canaries which had planned the trip suggests that maybe there is a point in this.

However having said all the above I think there is a place for the rallys they certainly are a great boost for the nervous sailor, and I have learnt lots from previous participants both in terms of what to do and what not to do, hopefully complimenting my own lack of experience.

I will now duck to avoid comments about how irresponsible I am for going alone.


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snowleopard

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yes, i have done the crossing various ways: OSTAR, independant, ARC, ARC Europe. on the last, we had gear failure and returned to bermuda, setting out later with an informal net and the final leg alone.

i think the issue of people not knowing how their gear works, most people nowadays sail production boats that come with the gear erady installed. i built mine and installed all the systems so i can fix things as i go along but i wouldn't recommend it as an approach for everyone. if you can't fix things you should know how to do without them!

as a solo sailor you'll always get comments about disobeying col regs etc. but even on the ARC with 220 boats on the same course we saw only 2 others after the 1st day, the chances of collision are pretty slim. the biggest problem to overcome is psychological.

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Mudplugger

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Re: Sailing with a rally

IMHO the possibility of maintaining contact within a fleet of assorted size yachties is unlikely in the extreme..Having had some 15 years of organising an annual bash across the S.North sea, very rapidly came to the conclusion, concentrate on the social/prizegiving/aspects of life, allow participants to make their own decisions as to go/ not go, provide advice on safety equipment (RORC) reccs. nominate active VHF channel, AND STAGGER start times, (3) lowest handicap boats, starting last. that way as entrants cross the lanes, virtually all taking part, are in that area of the sea, that causes most concern to the firsttimers (and we were all that once) have the confidence that others are not too far away....in the event of difficulties.
As on this crossing ( Brightlingsea / Ostend ) times can vary from 10 hrs to 24hrs with a mixed fleet of sail boats, and mobo's from 3-6hours, there is very little likelyhood of keeping to-gether, but at least everyone is aware that others are not to far away...
On average year, get about 20 entries, 80 people to dinner, and a lot of fun, and at least 4 of the entries will be first time across. So the original concept of
encouraging les outres to sample the delights of Belgium and Dutch hospitality, has been fullfilled, in addition to broadening the overall sailing experience of participants.
BUT THE DECISION TO GO HAS TO BE THE SKIPPERS!!!!. not mine.




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