Are we about to lose GPS - post this Br***t mess? Very worrying

Robert Wilson said:
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/galileo-satellite-system-brexit-gps

Interesting article. Thanks AndrewL
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Motor_Sailor said:
Of course it's bullshit. But it feeds into the post-Brexit La-La Land fantasy that resonates with the 'true believers'.
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This article in the Register (https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/12/03/brexit_satellite/) shows exactly HOW difficult it would be for the UK to build its own system. Little chance of interoperability with existing systems. Oddly, the show-stopper is lack of electromagnetic spectrum for a new system to operate in!
 
Robert Wilson said:
USA controls Galileo and apparently Europe is getting a system of its own - but both may be denied to GB boats.

This I heard from a neighbour last evening, one who seems to know what he is talking about - but I don't in this case.

So, post Br***t, might Europe deny this vital facility to GB sailors/fishermen/CG/commercial vessels etc etc ?
Or at least might we have to "pay through the nose" by way of licence fees, usage tariffs etc?

What a horrifying thought, if true.

Anybody any advice, thoughts, knowledge on this?
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Presumably both of you voted in the referendum:( To be so ignorant of basic facts surrounding GPS which as sailors is probably your prime means of navigation doesn't say a great deal about the understanding of issues surrounding Brexit. And people wonder why it is inadvisable to hold referenda and why the UK is is in such a mess, if anything demonstrates it it is the OPs post.
 
sailorman said:
Our distribution / logistics system would crash without GPS being available. Dont panic, it will be all right. especially for those of us with paper charts & a pencil :p
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Yes, I have a nice big chart table, charts, almanac, pencils, Portland plotter etc. Loss of GPS wouldn't bother me much. In fact the only electronics I would hate to lose is my depth sounder.
 
Fr J Hackett said:
Presumably both of you voted in the referendum:( To be so ignorant of basic facts surrounding GPS which as sailors is probably your prime means of navigation doesn't say a great deal about the understanding of issues surrounding Brexit. And people wonder why it is inadvisable to hold referenda and why the UK is is in such a mess, if anything demonstrates it it is the OPs post.
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Ouch!

I hadn't realised I was to blame for the Br***t mess, but I was aware that the populace had not been given accurate, understandable relevant information regarding the issues. For that I blame the politicians, particularly those peddling the half-truths lies and scare-mongering - on BOTH sides of the debate.
As a septuagenarian, life-long resident of Britain and one who until recently could name every Minister and Shadow Minister, their departments and their responsibilities, I regard myself as someone who knows a reasonable amount about the British Parliamental system and Britain's place in the world.

What I tried to obtain in my post was some elucidation as to what might be happening to the GPS system. I am well aware of what it does, how it does it and how it affects the electronic element of my navigation (not the paper and pencil element).
I had no intention of opening yet another Brexit debate, rant or mud-slinging exchange.

I'm sorry if I trod on your corn.
 
Robert Wilson said:
USA controls Galileo and apparently Europe is getting a system of its own - but both may be denied to GB boats.

This I heard from a neighbour last evening, one who seems to know what he is talking about - but I don't in this case.

So, post Br***t, might Europe deny this vital facility to GB sailors/fishermen/CG/commercial vessels etc etc ?
Or at least might we have to "pay through the nose" by way of licence fees, usage tariffs etc?

What a horrifying thought, if true.

Anybody any advice, thoughts, knowledge on this?
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The chip in your mobile phone (and probably your marine GPS) will be getting a fix from Beidou, GPS, GLONASS & Galileo SVs.

In the unlikely event that one of these was denied in UK waters you wouldn't even notice.

We should probably all stop saying GPS, and use the more generic term GNSS.
 
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I am delighted to report my sextant still works and as long as I have led in my pencil can do the sums.

I take an interest all the electronic gizmos due to my interest in digital comms and usually fall about laughing when the politicians/media talk and report on something that they have no understanding of.
 
When a pro Brexit minister proclaimed we would have our "own" system with other "unnamed" partners, suspect you could hear the gales of laughter from the our scientific community and the certainty that you probably might not want to hold your breath for the start date.
Mind you China might be looking to invest in something technical due to some spare capacity becoming available at short notice. :)
 
Fr J Hackett said:
Presumably both of you voted in the referendum:( To be so ignorant of basic facts surrounding GPS which as sailors is probably your prime means of navigation doesn't say a great deal about the understanding of issues surrounding Brexit. And people wonder why it is inadvisable to hold referenda and why the UK is is in such a mess, if anything demonstrates it it is the OPs post.
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Seems unnecessarily rude - this sort of thing is why a rival, friendlier forum ( with working software ) was set up.

Interesting thread though otherwise.
 
Am I being a bit simplistic in thinking that to deny all GPS coverage to one country the trasmitting satellites visible to it would have to be switched off therefore denying positioning signals to a vast area, not just the jagged boundary of the UK? The useability of any transmissions is surely down to the receiving device, if you have one you will receive them. I find it hard to believe that the satellite operators could tell the satellite that Fred's tracker can recieve but Blog's can't unless they recall all devices and reprogram them. I would just say mine broke and my new car had been scrapped but carry on using them!
I suppose the converse of that is they would have to repogram the satellites and all the non UK trackers.


On the other hand could be a blessing in disguise though if we were denied SatNav, no more being sent down farm tracks instead of the parallel main road!
Bring on "the people's vote"!
 
myquest said:
Am I being a bit simplistic in thinking that to deny all GPS coverage to one country the trasmitting satellites visible to it would have to be switched off therefore denying positioning signals to a vast area, not just the jagged boundary of the UK? The useability of any transmissions is surely down to the receiving device, if you have one you will receive them. I find it hard to believe that the satellite operators could tell the satellite that Fred's tracker can recieve but Blog's can't unless they recall all devices and reprogram them. I would just say mine broke and my new car had been scrapped but carry on using them!
I suppose the converse of that is they would have to repogram the satellites and all the non UK trackers.


On the other hand could be a blessing in disguise though if we were denied SatNav, no more being sent down farm tracks instead of the parallel main road!
Bring on "the people's vote"!
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Yes, it is a bit simplistic. All the satelites are visible at different times everywhere in the world; the orbits aren't geostationary (and GPS wouldn't work if they were). To deny access to a part of the world means very clever programming of the system to deny signals useful in certain places, and I doubt it can be done with any sort of precision. It also probably implies some degradation of services in places served by the same satellites but not in the zone; the built-in redundancy of the system will be lessened in those places.
 
myquest said:
Am I being a bit simplistic in thinking that to deny all GPS coverage to one country the trasmitting satellites visible to it would have to be switched off therefore denying positioning signals to a vast area, not just the jagged boundary of the UK?
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I imagine 'jagged area of the UK' would be tricky but the USA can certainly turn GPS off on a regional basis. For instance, they periodically turn off GPS in the area West of the West Coast of Scotland for military exercises and I'm sure they turned off GPS in and around Iraq during the Gulf War. They don't want the enemy using civilian GPS.

...but that's GPS & the OP was asking about Galileo. I've no idea what ability Galileo has to be limited by geographical area or even if they have a concept of Military/Civilian use.

All academic though. If we lose one GNSS provider the other 3 will all work fine. The only way I can see GNSS completely ceasing to work in the UK is a war where the USA/China/Russia started destroying all the GNSS SVs to deny GNSS to the others and under those circumstances finding my way to St Vaast for Moule Frites wouldn't be a big priority.

WRT to Galileo: In the same way than none of us noticed GNSS getting better when Galileo was switched on, none of us would notice GNSS getting worse if it were switched off.
 
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oldgit said:
When a pro Brexit minister proclaimed we would have our "own" system with other "unnamed" partners, suspect you could hear the gales of laughter from the our scientific community and the certainty that you probably might not want to hold your breath for the start date.
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Perhaps we divert some of that extra £350m per week which the NHS will soon be getting to building our own system. Which will probably be Decca, and UK only because who wants to go abroad? Full of foreigners, abroad.
 
Mark-1 said:
I imagine 'jagged area of the UK' would be tricky but the USA can certainly turn GPS off on a regional basis. For instance, they periodically turn off GPS in the area West of the West Coast of Scotland for military exercises and I'm sure they turned off GPS in and around Iraq during the Gulf War. They don't want the enemy using civilian GPS.

...but that's GPS & the OP was asking about Galileo. I've no idea what ability Galileo has to be limited by geographical area or even if they have a concept of Military/Civilian use.

All academic though. If we lose one GNNS provider the other 3 will all work fine. The only way I can see GNNS completely ceasing to work in the UK is a war where the USA/China/Russia started destroying all the GNNS SVs to deny GNNS to the others and under those circumstances finding my way to St Vaast for Moule Frites wouldn't be a big priority.

WRT to Galileo: In the same way than none of us noticed GNNS getting better when Galileo was switched on, none of us would notice GNNS getting worse if it were switched off.
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The loss of GPS in places like the West of Scotland is achieved by jamming, not by fiddling with the system itself. It's ridiculously easy to jam all GNSS systems; the signal strength is tiny and the number of frequencies limited and well-known.
 
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