Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
"basically its a minimum wash scenario .... "
And the way to guarantee minimum wash for all vessels is minimum speed.
And the way to guarantee minimum wash for all vessels is minimum speed.
Are speed limits any use?
- Thread starter fireball
- Start date
fireball
Well-Known Member
the problem with minimum speed for some is lack of manouverability....
ricky_s
Well-Known Member
I agree with everything you've said on this thread Fireball, but you are never going to convince others on here.
It is all down to the fact we MOBO owners have big engines and are not welcome as far as certain people are concerned.
fireball
Well-Known Member
The one thing I HATE in the harbour is 'monstorous mobos' charging through at the regulation 8 knots without a care for anyone else in the vicinity - fortunately these are few and far between.
On the otherhand, I question why we should all be limited to 8 knots regardless of the conditions/conjestion ...
The majority of boaters are quite knowledgable and should be able to distinguish between safe passage and unsafe passage ...
eg - in the club rib, I may want to get to the front of the fleet to get some good photos, or travel downwind with them - technically I'm not allowed to break the 8 knots limit - so I cannot get these shots unless I preplan or have several boats dotted around the area. But usually on the weekday evenings we are the only boats out in the harbour - so blatting along at 16 knots isn't going to make any difference to anyone.
I've also done patrol boat for fed week a few times, the number of ribs that "break the limit" for no apparent reason is staggering - yet there are no (reported) injuries from these occaisions.
What it doesn't need to be is a free for all - so, like Ken said - 20 knots through moorings is more likely to be dangerous than 20 knots through open harbour. But then 20 knots through open harbour will be dangerous during the busy times.
Perhaps harbous could experiment by relaxing the speed limits during the week? They could maintain the limit through the moorings - although a minimum wash limit would be better.
On the otherhand, I question why we should all be limited to 8 knots regardless of the conditions/conjestion ...
The majority of boaters are quite knowledgable and should be able to distinguish between safe passage and unsafe passage ...
eg - in the club rib, I may want to get to the front of the fleet to get some good photos, or travel downwind with them - technically I'm not allowed to break the 8 knots limit - so I cannot get these shots unless I preplan or have several boats dotted around the area. But usually on the weekday evenings we are the only boats out in the harbour - so blatting along at 16 knots isn't going to make any difference to anyone.
I've also done patrol boat for fed week a few times, the number of ribs that "break the limit" for no apparent reason is staggering - yet there are no (reported) injuries from these occaisions.
What it doesn't need to be is a free for all - so, like Ken said - 20 knots through moorings is more likely to be dangerous than 20 knots through open harbour. But then 20 knots through open harbour will be dangerous during the busy times.
Perhaps harbous could experiment by relaxing the speed limits during the week? They could maintain the limit through the moorings - although a minimum wash limit would be better.
ricky_s
Well-Known Member
I agree, sometimes on the way back to Chi Marina you get a big boat coming the other way in the small channel after Itchenor, creating big wash and throwing everyone around.
Going the other way after Itchenor and all the moorings when things open up, doing 20 Knots would not cause any problems at all. No erosion would be caused at that distance from the bank.
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Robin
Well-Known Member
Oddly perhaps but the big mobos are rarely a problem in Poole, it is the smaller ones that rarely go farther than out to Studland and back so are in the speed limit (10kts) area for maybe 60/70% of their trip. The big ones seem quite capable mostly of going through the harbour without too much wash.
As others have said there are two separate issues here, speed and wash.
Excess speed in congested areas amongst the moorings or amongst anchored boats is plain dangerous from whoever, be they sailboarder, kite surfer, sailing dinghy, RIB, PWC or whatever.
Wash is different. You don't have to be speeding to create a wash and you may well never see it's effects which travel far and wide. In Poole virtually everything under engine at 10kts will create excessive was but that is the speed limit. There is also a 'No Wash' bye-law but many forget about, don't care or have never read that.
We even complain about wash in our Yacht Club marina! This is from our large fleet of rescue RIBs that are operated by sailers who have all had training. There are still a minority of twits trained or not that cannot see how a 'little' wash from a RIB can possibly effect a big boat in it's berth. In July there was a boat a few berths down with very young kids on board and mum was pouring boiling water from the kettle whilst holding one of the kids, along came plonker and kiddie nearly got scalded. Another time someone was trying to solder an aerial connector... Our finger berth is wide and as long as the boat with a pile at it's outer end yet I have had to rapidly grab all the bits of our BBQ I was cleaning to stop them being dumped in the water. NUTS! One place you should surely not expect to be jerked about by wash is in a marina?
It isn't just mobos/RIBs that are inconsiderate either. As a YC we have lots of opens, nationals and even world championship events and all need to launch and on many occasions will need to go through the marina rather than directly out simply because there isn't enough water on the direct route. I don't think it considerate to go through the marina with a spinnaker up and crew on the wire, or in a Dart cat flying a hull but hey what do I know I'm just a grumpy old git!
fireball
Well-Known Member
The advantage you have there is that you can control who uses your club facilities - so table a motion to force minimum wash from the ribs (or move them to nearer the exit?!) and ban the dinghy twots who fly their spinny/hull/trapeze through the marina (actually - again, it would be perfectly acceptable to fly the spinny - if there was little wind and they just ghosted through). For the opens that could be an automatic dsq that cannot be discarded from the series ...
So - Poole has 10 knots limit with very little problem from the larger powerboats ... Chi has 8 knots and the few powerboats that do the speed limit can churn up a lot of wash.
The ribs do churn up a lot from about 6 knots to 12
The dinghies don't churn up much at all ....
So - Poole has 10 knots limit with very little problem from the larger powerboats ... Chi has 8 knots and the few powerboats that do the speed limit can churn up a lot of wash.
The ribs do churn up a lot from about 6 knots to 12
The dinghies don't churn up much at all ....
Robin
Well-Known Member
We have a 4kt rule with new signs to draw attention to wash/speed but there are still (as one of our powerboat trainers said) a few gobby twits that think it unnecesary. Embarassingly one time we had a big visiting mobo owner complain about the wash from one of our RIBs!
Otherwise I'm afraid big boat owners whilst putting the most monies in the pot are in the minority in numbers compared to dinghies when any such radical proposals as controlling them might be concerned!
Otherwise I'm afraid big boat owners whilst putting the most monies in the pot are in the minority in numbers compared to dinghies when any such radical proposals as controlling them might be concerned!
AntarcticPilot
Well-Known Member
10 knots seems a very high speed limit for a marina. After all, most sailing vessels won't come anywhere near that. At Inverkip, I think it's 2 knots; certainly not more than 3, and it appears to be generally observed.
jason -and the arguenauts
Well-Known Member
Here in Cardiff bay we have the mixed speed limits you mention - 5kn max close to the moorings and unlimited in the bay itself. However, there are two passenger carrying ribs who excite their passengers by gyrations through the buoys at full speed. There are also any number of big powerboats who's owners seem to want to take them out just to warm up the engines at full throttle but not to go through the locks into the Severn.
The result is a dangerous mix of kids in Oppies, small sailing cruisers and 30 / 40 knots power boats. Never mind the wash, sooner or later there will be a serious accident even though the rib drivers are clearly competent. Just too big a speed differential and a momentary misjudgement - crunch!
The result is a dangerous mix of kids in Oppies, small sailing cruisers and 30 / 40 knots power boats. Never mind the wash, sooner or later there will be a serious accident even though the rib drivers are clearly competent. Just too big a speed differential and a momentary misjudgement - crunch!
Robin
Well-Known Member
Ahem the limit in Poole Harbour is 10kts, with some specific areas designated as quiet or no wash areas as well, maybe 5kts limit I can't remember.
The limit in our marina is 4kts. Oddly it also says do not enter under sail....
I think the big mobos and especially those that actually go places have nothing to prove, so are happy to go through the harbour considerately. The smaller to midsize ones and those that never go anywhere much are the bigger problem because their little out to sea and back patch is right where their wash does the most damage.
fireball
Well-Known Member
Hmm - tricky to get in and out if you don't have an engine then! ... I suppose you could force them all to paddle.
If you've only got a couple of 'Gobby Twits' then surely you can 'educate them' ... refusing to offer them next years membership usually works ...
AntarcticPilot
Well-Known Member
InverKip is also "Do not enter under sail" - but given the way the marina is laid out, it would be pretty well impossible to get to a berth safely under sail anyway. And the entrance is narrow, with shallow water either side of the channel, so the chances of getting in against the wind are slim anyway - there isn't room to tack even a relatively small boat like my Moody 31. I was under the impression that it was a commonplace restriction for modern marinas.
fireball
Well-Known Member
Where Robin berths it is a sailing club - with dinghies as well as sail only keel boats. It's these guys who will come 'through' the marina under sail
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
I'm on the Hamble, where we have a 6 kt limit. That speed is fine for bigger motorboats and yachts, which create little wash at 6 kts. However, smaller mobos, ribs, etc seem honour bound to treat 6 kts a minimum as well as a maximum, regardless of the wash they leave behind them. They never look over their shoulders to see the masts of the yachts on moorings pendulum-ing through an arc of 50 degrees.
fireball
Well-Known Member
So - how do you think the situation could be improved?
Observer
Well-Known Member
Yep - I make a reasonably substantial wash with the RIB at 6kts. Have to slow to 4-5 to make it acceptable in a narrow fairway like the Hamble, particularly at low water and/or when there's little wind to stir things up. It is a little bit of a drag but that's just the way it is.
My sympathy for small mobos applies in places where there are no moored boats or small craft to disturb and where it is possible to 'get on the plane' at a bit over the limit and still be making no more wash than larger (40'ish) mobo at (say) 6kts. The Hamble is not one of those places.
However, in Portsmouth (10kts limit) or Salcombe (8 kts) I can be planing at (say) 12kts and be making no more wash than 40' mobos at 6kts and substantially less than the same size mobo at 8kts or 10kts. In Fair Prospect, I never do more than 6-7kts until I'm outside the harbour and probably less in a narrow channel (like the approach to Port Solent). It simply makes too much wash.
