Are sailors standards of behaviour declining

[Dutch01527]

Went to Porlock Weir from Cardiff over the weekend. First time visit. The plan was to anchor off and I had phoned the very helpful harbour master for local knowledge on anchoring locations. There were two minor incidents that make me question the manners and competence of other people who were also anchoring there.

1) We were edging in perpendicular to the shore to the recommended location, monitoring the depth as it reduced. We were proabably 300 meters from shore and 100m from the spot where we planned to anchor. A c. 40 foot sailing boat had been following us and steamed close past us at about 7 knots under engine and promptly dropped anchor directly in front of us. He obviously knew that we were just about to anchor in his favourite spot and decided to go all out to sneak in first. Dreadful manners. As we altered course around him he shouted something about the holding being good here, totally oblivious to his bad behaviour. The only redeeming bit of the incident was that I kept my promise to my wife that I would control my tendency to lose my temper and confront people like that somewhat forcefully.

2) The holding ground at Porlock is somewhat suspect and we had delayed a decision to go there until we were sure that we had a good wind forecast overnight - c. 8 knots offshore. In reality the wind picked up to 20-25knots at about midnight and stayed roughly that way until morning. Other than our bad mannered friend mentioned above there were two other boats who had arrived after us, a new looking 35 foot power boat and a new looking 40 foot sailing boat. I had set a anchor alarm and it went off at about 2.00am. I ran on deck and saw two sets of steaming lights (red, green and white above) about 200 metres and 300 metres away respectively heading straight for us. I was in a bleary(beery) state, just woke up to an alarm after 2 hours sleep and it was a very frightening sight. I grabbed a high powered torch and shone it on the nearest boat and thankfully could see no bow wave and an empty bridge deck. Same for the second boat. Both boats had anchored with full steaming navigation lights on. How can anyone with enough money and experience to buy a £100k plus boat be so incompetent?

Rant over.

 

[JumbleDuck]

1) We were edging in perpendicular to the shore to the recommended location, monitoring the depth as it reduced. We were proabably 300 meters from shore and 100m from the spot where we planned to anchor. A c. 40 foot sailing boat had been following us and steamed close past us at about 7 knots under engine and promptly dropped anchor directly in front of us. He obviously knew that we were just about to anchor in his favourite spot and decided to go all out to sneak in first. Dreadful manners. As we altered course around him he shouted something about the holding being good here, totally oblivious to his bad behaviour. The only redeeming bit of the incident was that I kept my promise to my wife that I would control my tendency to lose my temper and confront people like that somewhat forcefully.

Is it possible that you were going very slowly indeed and that he, knowing the area well, saw no reason to wait for you? His telling you about some good holding sounds like friendliness, and anyway you were planning to anchor 100m away.

That said, rushing to overtake people annoys me to. Little tip to motorboat "Lady B-------- of Beaumaris": when you're on the plane pushing past a couple of sailing yachts at the entrance to Campbeltown Marina, maybe give them more than 20' clearance. And get off your bloody phone.

 

[Dutch01527]

Is it possible that you were going very slowly indeed and that he, knowing the area well, saw no reason to wait for you? His telling you about some good holding sounds like friendliness, and anyway you were planning to anchor 100m away.
.

That would be a very charitable view. I was planning to anchor exactly where he did as recommended by the harbour master as a patch of good holding sand/mud ground in a otherwise mainly shingle. I do not question his right to anchor there just his standard of good manners.

He overtook me at full speed slowed down immediately and stopped 50 yards directly in front of my bow as we were still moving. He must have known that we were preparing to drop anchor. I took his comment as an explanation for his behaviour not useful advice to me. My mate who was with me is a Yachtmaster examiner and his verdict was “ what a complete plonker”. Anchor rodes in the upper Bristol Channel are typically 50- 70m so he knew that he was forcing me to abandon my approach and choose another spot some distance away from him.

 

[johnalison]

I suppose that the increase in bad behaviour is to some extent the inevitable result of many more craft being around and hence more encounters, good or bad. My impression is that the later generation of sailors who come in at the 35' level without having an apprenticeship in small craft tend to lack refinement, both in boat-handling and manners. Bad behaviour was always there, though. I remember being in St Peter Port in the early '90s We had already tired of the four middle-aged people outside us in a scruffy boat called something like Sing-Sang. One afternoon I was up the mast for a short time when they wanted to come across. My wife told them not to because I was aloft but they all charged across, with me hanging on for life as our then Sadler 29 swayed alarmingly.

Even in Holland, once held to be a place where seamanship ruled, there is a new generation which can be quite arrogant. The three grossest violations of rule 13 about overtaking craft have all been from young Dutchmen who seemed to think that my smaller boat ahead of them was obliged to get out of their way, all in open water. (I have still have positive feelings about their nation nevertheless).

 

[[2574]]

I acknowledge how annoying such an incident can be. We had something similar in the Crinan this year. Knob pushing forward overtaking us on the canal to get in the next lock first....yawn....

Regrettably our modern society is often inward looking and self serving; many people no longer think of others, only themselves, and it makes us all poorer. Manners maketh man.

I find the only feasible solution is to maximise the distance between myself and the self-identified knob.

 

[RupertW]

I don’t see anything unusual in what you describe even going back 20 or 30 years and we spend most nights on the hook - almost every night one or two boats put all lights on. It’s silly but slightly less annoying than strong flashing lights which I see more and more.

As for beating you to the space it’s first come first served and you have no right to the space or anything to complain about. You only have to be beaten to a space a few times to start the habit of pushing up the throttle the moment you spot another yacht in the vicinity just like you would or if you spot a seat on a train and your competitors are all able bodied like you.

 

[bedouin]

1) We were edging in perpendicular to the shore to the recommended location, monitoring the depth as it reduced. We were proabably 300 meters from shore and 100m from the spot where we planned to anchor.

If you were "edging in" perhaps he had no reason to think you were aiming for a anchoring spot 100m away.

To mean edging implies that you are looking to drop the anchor pretty much immediately and it would seem perfectly sensible for the other boat to pass and get out of your way.

 

[Dutch01527]

If you were "edging in" perhaps he had no reason to think you were aiming for a anchoring spot 100m away.

To mean edging implies that you are looking to drop the anchor pretty much immediately and it would seem perfectly sensible for the other boat to pass and get out of your way.

By edging I mean about 2 knots. I still think that sweeping past at full speed and stopping 50 yards dead ahead is bad manners. I would have hit him in less than 30 seconds if I had not manoeuvred. He was hell bent on his favourite spot and pushed past to get it despite me being already on my approach. I was 300 yards from the beach heading straight at it. Not dangerous and not against any regulations but boorish behaviour in my opinion.

 

[bedouin]

By edging I mean about 2 knots. I still think that sweeping past and stopping 50 yards ahead is bad manners. I would have hit him in less than 30 seconds if I had not manoeuvred. He was hell bent on his favourite spot and pushed past to get it despite me being already on my approach. Not dangerous and not against any regulations but boorish behaviour in my opinion.

If he stopped 50 yds away and you were 100m from your preferred spot it sounds as if he left you enough space anyway (depending on depth etc).

I don't see how you think he could be expected to know where you were heading for.

 

[Old Bumbulum]

I'm rather surprised at some of the replies above. If a boat is proceeding with caution, esp if it is heading towards the beach it is evident it is intent on doing something - most likely anchoring. In any case it clearly isn't an occasion for overtaking until his intentions are clear. To blast right past it and anchor dead ahead is appalling manners and lousy seamanship. Sorry, that's pretty black and white to me. It's the same as pushing past a slow-moving person heading for a seat on a train and diving into it in front of them.

I was entering the narrow approach to Lowestoft bridge the other day following a line of five or six other yachts at a respectful distance when a small Bendytoy that had been following me at in imprudently close distance suddenly shot ahead to an abeam position as the walls narrowed, realised he was getting into a tight spot, hauled the power back and then hung on alongside for what seemed like a long while which only made the situation worse, and then gunned it ahead again passing maybe 5m ahead of me. I had to slow to give myself safe searoom as he too had to slow as he found he was catching up the other slow boats in front at an unhealthy rate, the reason I was going slowly in the first place. Not what you want in the mouth of a lift-bridge.

Incrediblty bad seamanshp, let alone manners or common sense. They're out there all right.

 

[Dutch01527]

If he stopped 50 yds away and you were 100m from your preferred spot it sounds as if he left you enough space anyway (depending on depth etc).

I don't see how you think he could be expected to know where you were heading for.

Not that it really matters but just to be clear. I was following a transit given by the harbour master heading directly for the beach at 2 knots, 300 yards off and intending to anchor 200 yards off. Closer in would be too shallow to anchor.

Guy comes charging past on the same heading 10 metres away at 7 knots. Reduces speed as soon as he passes and comes to halt 200 yards off the beach. By the time he came to a halt I was 50 yards away from him and had to veer away. All this happed in less than 30 seconds. My thought process was - where the hell is he going at that speed/ he is slowing down/ he has stopped directly in front of us / we are going to hit him / we had better abandon and do a 180 degrees turn/ what a ****.

Bear in mind that there is a 10m tide in the Bristol Channel. We were at low water and planning to anchor in 3.5m (so 13.5m at high water overnight) with a rode of 60m. That is over a 100m of swing so boats here can not anchor too close to each other. Boats do not always swing in sequence up here. Some may lie to wind and some to tide so two boats with anchors 100m apart could theoretically swing into each other.

 

[Mark-1]

To mean edging implies that you are looking to drop the anchor pretty much immediately and it would seem perfectly sensible for the other boat to pass and get out of your way.

That sounds pretty plausible to me and I can imagine myself doing that. "He's going there, I'll wizz out of his way and drop mine beyond him.". Without mind reading it's hard to be sure what he was thinking.

As for passing 10m away, a 'boat length' clearance sound pretty reasonable, generous even.

 

[bedouin]

Not that it really matters but just to be clear. I was following a transit given by the harbour master heading directly for the beach at 2 knots, 300 yards off and intending to anchor 200 yards off. Guy comes charging past on the same heading 10 metres away at 7 knots. Reduces speed as soon as he passes and comes to halt 200 yards off the beach. By the time he came to a halt I was 50 yards away from him and had to veer away. All this happed in less than 30 seconds.

Err - no it didn't. At 2 knots you wouldn't cover 50yds in less than 30 seconds - but let that pass

I don't want to sound critical and his motives may have been as you describe but I think there was sufficient ambiguity in your actions that he may not have realised your intentions. As I said above if I saw a boat edging around at those speeds it might not occur to me that he was looking to anchor 100m away and I might well choose to get out of the way and leave you to whatever you were doing.

As a matter of interest was he making an overnight stop?

 

[JumbleDuck]

I acknowledge how annoying such an incident can be. We had something similar in the Crinan this year. Knob pushing forward overtaking us on the canal to get in the next lock first....yawn....

Unfortunately the Crinan Canal can be a very good place to see some shocking manners, though still only from a minority. It always seems to be visiting English boats, too, importing Solent bustle to the sleepy West Highlands.

 

[Dutch01527]

Err - no it didn't. At 2 knots you wouldn't cover 50yds in less than 30 seconds - but let that pass

I don't want to sound critical and his motives may have been as you describe but I think there was sufficient ambiguity in your actions that he may not have realised your intentions. As I said above if I saw a boat edging around at those speeds it might not occur to me that he was looking to anchor 100m away and I might well choose to get out of the way and leave you to whatever you were doing.

As a matter of interest was he making an overnight stop?

I looked it up and you are right 2 knots would take 44 seconds to cover 50 yards. I amend my description, I should of said that I was doing 2.4 knots and covered 44 yards in 35 seconds . The guy did stay overnight.

I can not see any possibility of ambiguity as to my intentions, I was travelling in a 28 foot sailing boat directly towards a shelving beach,in a known anchorage area, at a cautious speed but still clearly identifiable as making forward progress. He stopped 56 yards in front of me to drop his anchor. Pretty obvious I was feeling my way in to get to a depth suitable to anchor as any sensible sailor would if they did not know the site. Even if I had already been anchored he would have slid back to my position by the time he had paid out his rode.

 

[johnalison]

I looked it up and you are right 2 knots would take 44 seconds to cover 50 yards. I amend my description, I should of said that I was doing 2.4 knots and covered 44 yards in 35 seconds . The guy did stay overnight.

I can not see any possibility of ambiguity as to my intentions, I was travelling in a 28 foot sailing boat directly towards a shelving beach,in a known anchorage area, at a cautious speed but still clearly identifiable as making forward progress. He stopped 56 yards in front of me to drop his anchor. Pretty obvious I was feeling my way in to get to a depth suitable to anchor as any sensible sailor would if they did not know the site. Even if I had already been anchored he would have slid back to my position by the time he had paid out his rode.

Fear not. I think that most readers have accepted your description of events and accept that since you were there you should know what happened. For training in how to assert your rights I can recommend doing a transit of the Netherlands from N-S or vice versa during the silly season. Better still, try passing the Kornwerderzand locks on a Sunday afternoon.

 

[Biggles Wader]

Leaving aside the very boring arguementative pedantic contributions from the usual suspects, yes it was very rude and unseamanlike to barge past a slow moving vessel approaching an anchorage and drop the hook close in front of them. We have yet to get the Colregs arguement----Did the other vessel count as an overtaking vessel and did he keep clear of you while passing and until he was past and clear?

 

[bedouin]

I looked it up and you are right 2 knots would take 44 seconds to cover 50 yards. I amend my description, I should of said that I was doing 2.4 knots and covered 44 yards in 35 seconds . The guy did stay overnight.

I can not see any possibility of ambiguity as to my intentions, I was travelling in a 28 foot sailing boat directly towards a shelving beach,in a known anchorage area, at a cautious speed but still clearly identifiable as making forward progress. He stopped 56 yards in front of me to drop his anchor. Pretty obvious I was feeling my way in to get to a depth suitable to anchor as any sensible sailor would if they did not know the site. Even if I had already been anchored he would have slid back to my position by the time he had paid out his rode.

But if he thought you were feeling your way in then how could he know where you were going to decide to drop the hook?

From what you said earlier it appeared that you knew beforehand that you wanted to be 200yds off so were not in fact feeling your way in by depth. I think you overestimate how clear your intentions were to the other boat.

There seems to be an increasing either relutance or inability to put ourselves from the other's perspective.

 

[steveeasy]

My Partners been with me several times this season and got used to listening to radio protocol and the way people generally interact with each other. She said the other day, isn't it nice how everyone is so polite. shes not been on the forum though!!.

Steveeasy

 

[STILL AFLOAT]

Of course , standards are declining, just look at the marine division of the travellers.
Add to that, the advent of cheap GPS units, that now allow the uninformed, to go to sea, then try to get help ,after a lightning strike takes out their electrics ? Or any other electrical failure ?
A lot of the clowns I know, dont even bother with paper charts, since the laptop does it all, until it stops working, for whatever reason.
Yes I still carry my sextant and my air nav books. I have a small vhf and a small gps ,in carrymat foam lined tins, that act as farraday cages, so even after a lightning strike, I have short range coms + gps with spare batteries.
I cannot remember the ammount of times , I have had to explain to, techy type tossers, Ok if you are mid atlantic & suffer an electronic breakdown ??
The sun rises in the East & sets in the West, keep following that, and with no nav gear at all, you will reach land eventually.
I do not think they do it on purpouse, they are just so full of their mobile phones and their Twit Face Likes, that they walk into lamp posts, cars ,etc, and do not change their ideas at sea.