Are paper charts still necessary and relevant?

[Mariner69]

I would respectfully suggest that you have been somewhat selective in your response.

Please look at the uppercase (my emphasis) part of 2.2.4 of Regulation 19 of Chapter V under SOLAS. The plan, display plot and monitor are all forms of time dependent recording be they physically on the paper chart or electronically.

You are correct that Passage Planning, Regulation 34, does not specifically demand it to be in writing but, ignoring Reg. 19 for the moment, you are in the argument of the contract law of verbal and writing; not worth the paper it is written on! It is difficult to prove when faced with an enquiry if you have not made a note of your planning. Infringement of the traffic separation rules would be one example where it might help somewhat if your carefully pre-planned passage proved to be somewhat flawed in the execution.

As you quite rightly state, most of SOLAS does not refer to leisure/recreational craft, however Chapter V has much more relevance and IMHO will in time become more policed.

 

[l'escargot]

I would respectfully suggest that you have been somewhat selective in your response.

Please look at the uppercase (my emphasis) part of 2.2.4 of Regulation 19 of Chapter V under SOLAS. The plan, display plot and monitor are all forms of time dependent recording be they physically on the paper chart or electronically.

You are correct that Passage Planning, Regulation 34, does not specifically demand it to be in writing but, ignoring Reg. 19 for the moment, you are in the argument of the contract law of verbal and writing; not worth the paper it is written on! It is difficult to prove when faced with an enquiry if you have not made a note of your planning. Infringement of the traffic separation rules would be one example where it might help somewhat if your carefully pre-planned passage proved to be somewhat flawed in the execution.

As you quite rightly state, most of SOLAS does not refer to leisure/recreational craft, however Chapter V has much more relevance and IMHO will in time become more policed.

Not selective at all. I am afraid unless your boat is over 150 gt, for the purpose of the chapters you quote it is not a 'ship' for the purpose of SOLAS.

As you say, it is "your emphasis" and you express an opinion, neither of which are supported by legislation or SOLAS and consequently both are incorrect I'm afraid. Have a a look at the MCA website if you don't believe me.

 

[Elessar]

Paper CTS for me was done 0030hrs to 0230 Friday night after a few beers , took at least 30 mins , Belfield is more accurate and takes 3-5 mins max.

I cant understand how you can do it easier or quicker.

Belfield automatically gives you today BST, automatically works out exact tide rate for the day not a average of spring/neap

It calculates the entire route making allowance for the time it takes you along the route.

I cant understand how you can open a tide atlas, check which primary is relevant and then add an hour before marking an arrow across your chart every hour , calculating difference between spring/neap rate ?

when you get to Alderney race you have another tide atlas page to find and another primary to look up ????

what am I missing ?

Pete, come over to the boat, have a beer and I will race you. Finish is when you've set the pilot.

Truth is, I don't know who will win.

But it will be a good tale to post on here.

 

[DAKA]

Pete, come over to the boat, have a beer and I will race you. Finish is when you've set the pilot.

Truth is, I don't know who will win.

But it will be a good tale to post on here.

pm sent when we are next on the boat for a beer , cheers

in the mean time I'm far too impatient to wait !

whats the direction and rate of flow from 20 nm from the needles on a direct route to Bray .

1200 noon 1/1/13 go !

 

[DAKA]

83 degrees 1.13 knots



and lets check 20nm from bray

 

[oldgit]

"Does this mean that you don't have permanent char to your laptop whilst underway"

The laptop supply was wired direct form the boats 12v power supply.It was the 12V to 19v convertor that failed.Requiring a hasty repower using 240 volts and the ordinary mains laptop charger.

 

[DAKA]

1.24 knts
276.6 degrees

its turned on us, what a waste of time that was !
good time to leave if you wanted slack water.

 

[Elessar]

1.24 knts
276.6 degrees

its turned on us, what a waste of time that was !
good time to leave if you wanted slack water.

OK everyone PMs exchanged and the dual is sort of planned. May take us a while to get the boats in the same place, but not too long.

The tale WILL be told here

Will post advance warning too so impartial judges can come along (and pour the drinks)

 

[hlb]

It is difficult on a plotter, to see a five/six hour journey, not that anyone seems to do them anymore.

A chart gives you the big picture. With a plotter you have to keep zooming in and out and it can be easy to miss a rock.

In a difficult area, like the Lancashire coast, a plotter may only show you the buoy you are at, but not the next one, zoom out, certainly on Garmin, no buoys show. So you have to go off an emailed chart, as the channels keep changing. Zooming back and forth on the plotter and finding the direction is very difficult on a moving boat when the next buoy can not be seen, but only a few hundred yards away. This is the time when flight planning becomes important. Difficult to do when you are the one man pilot, navigator and captain and only a few yards to drift while looking at the charts..

 

[Tender_aft]

OK everyone PMs exchanged and the dual is sort of planned. May take us a while to get the boats in the same place, but not too long.

The tale WILL be told here

Will post advance warning too so impartial judges can come along (and pour the drinks)

Excellent. I imagine you will be underway to do it properly. You will obviously need the judges to tell you the endpoint. I'd love to be there but I'm on the wrong continent for the start at the moment. I suggest you end in Rio, Brazil; that'll take you more than an hour and Erik C will be here to wave you in. By the time you arrive I might be back there though. We'll even give you £10 towards the fuel costs when/if you arrive.

Seriously though it is a great idea, educational and fun.

 

[oceanfroggie]

Hi Hayden
Understand what you are saying about the 'big picture view' paper used to give but we found ways to achieve same.

It is difficult on a plotter, to see a five/six hour journey, not that anyone seems to do them anymore.

On short 5/6 hr passages we've found the plotter fine to see the route overviews mixed with zoom in of our current location. Choices include split screen, two screens, zooming and panning, iPad for crew info. Eight to fifteen hour passages are more common on some of our big summer trips.

A chart gives you the big picture. With a plotter you have to keep zooming in and out and it can be easy to miss a rock.

I haven't found that a problem on modern fast hardware with good software. Agree large scale paper charts used to be useful for big picture planning but lacked detail at those scales, for some years instead I have passage and route planned on a large screen laptop, and more recently use an iPad. I have never used the plotter to plan routes, always laptop or now iPad.

Marine navigation is finally catching up with aviation.

I do miss the tactile feel and visual look of paper charts, pencil, and HBC, but similarly found a car is more practical to get around in than the bicycle I used to enjoy so much as a youngster. (tongue in cheek)

 

[Uricanejack]

Quote from LittleShip:-
Now...... How many of those who say we need paper charts have taken the time to swing[b/] the compass.

How many Know how to swing a compass.
Also is it still a requirement in law to keep a hard copy of your passage and log.
Would turning up in Court and handing over an Ipad or laptop as evidence of your passage be acceptable evidence.

When I was in the MN it was a requirement in law that a written up log of engine movements and a hard copy of the passage was maintained at all times and any incidents reported and entered in the log at the time they happened.

Yes,
Not sure its required on pleasure craft, good practice though.
Yes, in fact after an incident or acident, It would be common practice to try and retrieve the had drive of any and all navigational electronics.

Actualy the law requires the log to be filled in at a reasonable or practical time after the event. eg go back and retrieve the mob, put the fire out, avoid the collision, miss the rock. its perfectly aceptable to keep notes and fill out the log later, the note or note book can be used as evidence.
My log is often filled out by my wife or daughter and is more likly to contain details about lunch and if we saw seals.
My chart might have some of my scribiling on it If i was in the mood.

 

[Uricanejack]

I am a Luddite always have been always will be.
My first reaction to most new equipment and electronics often followed by.
Is you don’t need that
I don’t need it.
I don’t want one.
Ok but I would never use it
The young guys seam to like it but they should be looking out the window
Comes in handy occasionally. Wish I knew how it works.
Eventually.
Its great use it all the time.
You should get one.

I don’t have plotter yet. I don’t like them.
I can see the dam thing the screens are to small
Small screens are to bright at night not bright enough by day.

The truth is I can’t see the dammed chart ether.

 

[DAKA]

It is difficult on a plotter, to see a five/six hour journey, not that anyone seems to do them anymore.

You will be pleased to hear we still do an occasional long passage although admit this year 105 nm was the longest.

A chart gives you the big picture. With a plotter you have to keep zooming in and out and it can be easy to miss a rock.

The passage planning is done on laptop/ipad, once the route is planned I zoom in and follow the track to ensure there isnt any obstacles/races , easy to drag the waypoint further out or pop another one in to cut a corner.

In a difficult area, like the Lancashire coast, a plotter may only show you the buoy you are at, but not the next one, zoom out, certainly on Garmin, no buoys show. So you have to go off an emailed chart, as the channels keep changing. Zooming back and forth on the plotter and finding the direction is very difficult on a moving boat when the next buoy can not be seen, but only a few hundred yards away. This is the time when flight planning becomes important. Difficult to do when you are the one man pilot, navigator and captain and only a few yards to drift while looking at the charts..

We use the passage between herm and Jethou (very tight with drying rocks both sides of you, dog leg included, we cruise @ 20 knots through it (slightly reduced speed) and I wouldnt dream of getting the paper charts out any more ( I do have two plotters on the go, one zoomed in, one out).

You can see the passage here http://www.harbourguides.com/charts.php lookup the CI chart and zoom in .


I question the accuracy of paper charts on a fast boat and would like to hear tales of how anyone navigates @ 20-25knots while underway in anything more than a f3.

Pencil line (how many do you snap as you land on a wave)??? rolling rule (how do you keep it parallel) ???? dividers (do you wear chain mail gloves) ???? Tight navigation area (two quick transit lines with hand bearing compass , two pencil lines on the chart, oh I wondered what that bump was ) ????

Paper charts waterproof , perhaps in a cover but how do you draw on them then ?

I think the paper die hards have their rose coloured specs on , I can understand why some prefer to keep paper charts as a back up but question their general use while under way.

 

[oceanfroggie]

A regular myth criticisim or mis-perception by some, is that skippers spend a lot of time looking down at a small screen instead of outside. It doesn't work like that. Once a course is set the screen is only occasionally glanced at. The auto helm does the work. Steering a compass heading is the same irrespective of a CTS being established from paper or electronically. Pilotage has never been safer.

 

[DAKA]

A regular myth criticisim or mis-perception by some, is that skippers spend a lot of time looking down at a small screen instead of outside. It doesn't work like that. Once a course is set the screen is only occasionally glanced at. The auto helm does the work. Steering a compass heading is the same irrespective of a CTS being established from paper or electronically. Pilotage has never been safer.

Agreed.
I go a stage further, although we have magnetic compass course to steer written down along with distance to run / current log (as a safety back up) I never use the compass at all(save TSS)

I am entirely on rolling road with separate chart plotter at the side, I deliberately go off track a few miles in order to take advantage of a favourable tidal flow I can see on the adjacent chart plotter.
seldom use autohelm.

I don't even bother to flip the compass screen/sun cover off

 

[oGaryo]

so what's the consensus then, give tutors a steer to focus courses on more up to date means of passage planning and pilotage? i.e. get skippers used to using electronic means from the off rather than faffing about with charts, dividers and the like in the classroom?
Finish off the course with "this is how we used to do it in the dark ages" but worthwhile knowing as you may find yourself needing the methods once in a blue moon.

Of course that'll require a fairly significant investment on their part to give course attendees plotters, PC's, Ipads and the like to work with so I can envisage the reluctance to do so

 

[Ripster]

Interesting thread this. Did my YM theory last year and spent virtually the entire course on manually calculating courses, steering, tides, streams etc. So, yes I can do it, but never needed and probably never will need to do it. In practice, I use the tides App on my phone, plotter or Ipad to get these instantly - any port. And use the plotter on any of these to calc distances/courses/pilotage etc because it is so fast and easy. However, I do still just draw on the course and write some very quick notes down on paper of the plan and show this to the crew (SWMBO) so that there is something showing where we are going that does need to switch on - JIC all these fail somehow.

On the YM course I did, we spent about 1 hour on electronic plotters and what they did. The main reason is that they formed no part of the NAV exams.

 

[oldgit]

Boats have two engines in case one fails.
When both fail .......and they do .........you have the RNLI.
When your second/Third plotter/Ipiddle etc fails,lacking a map and a magnet your fall back is what exactly ?
Lady Luck presumably.

 

[oceanfroggie]

Agreed.
I go a stage further, although we have magnetic compass course to steer written down along with distance to run / current log (as a safety back up) I never use the compass at all(save TSS)

I am entirely on rolling road with separate chart plotter at the side, I deliberately go off track a few miles in order to take advantage of a favourable tidal flow I can see on the adjacent chart plotter.
seldom use autohelm.

I don't even bother to flip the compass screen/sun cover off

Sort of the same, when I said compass I actually use the Track/COG for heading and adjust DR as you do (or the fluxgate heading from the AP). But I love out autohelm except in a nastly blow.