Are paper charts still necessary and relevant?

[Elessar]

You don't need a paper chart.
A blank sheet of paper is quick and easy to do the vector sums.

Electronic plotters like OpenCPN will also do the calculations and will do them more accurately without some of the approximations and incorrect assumptions that are inherent in the simplified RYA method which can in certain (fortunately rare) cases can give answers that are significantly incorrect.

Its true you can do it on blank paper. But its easier to do it on a chart so why would you.
Show me how OPen CPN can do it over multiple hours. Maybe you are right and it has come on, but i've never seen it.
And no plotters can.

 

[Tender_aft]

1. 
   It's not about chart medium, it's about navigation skills. Either you have the skills to navigate or you don't. It's not rocket science.

1. 
   
   Funnily enough training is what I was doing at the moment and it taught me a good lesson.

 

[DAKA]

I still have paper charts on board and find them very useful, stuffed under the bed mattress, they insulate the cold fibreglass and prevent damp.

As to useful for navigation total rollocks !


1) I start with belfield to see where the current is flowing.

CTS is calculated automatically on Belfield , (however I question the necessity for this forum who cruise almost exclusively @ 20-25knts ).


2)
I check the Ipad to see where the waves are going.
3)
back to belfild to plot a rough course , tide with waves where possible, time to leave.
4)
Plot an accurate course on the ipad navionics, and scroll down the route in zoom in mode to check for hazards.
jot the waypoints down (only bit of paper used in order to comply with passage planning regulations and back up).
5)
transfer the waypoints to the plotter.

6)
Course to steer is adjusted at the helm on the day, Belfield will have shown me the predicted effects of the tide however on the day other factors come into play on small boats , the effect of rolling fog, huge ships/raggies to go round or pounding waves knocking your bow off course for example , so its adjusted every 15 mins or so after checking the plotter, I cant believe anyone keeps drawing pencil lines each time they go round a ship.

7) back up
Hand held VHF , mini GPS and battery back up stored inside an insulated metal box inside the metal oven for protection from lightning strikes.


I remain concerned about a direct lightning strike, alright I have my hand held gps and waypoints but modern diesels stop without electrics as the fuel stop solenoid will automatically close, even if you bypass the solenoid, none have hand crank abilities.

I question the die hard paper chart salty seadogs, I dont think have have thought this one through, whats the plan ?

drop anchor, wait for favourable wind/ tide to drift in the right direction , calculate when the tide turns and drop anchor again until you eventually safely navigate back to the solent

 

[Elessar]

Daft? In a sense, I agree. In fact, it's even more daft suggesting that paper charts are essential...
Besides, redundancy was the key point the OP was making, as I understood.
And these days, it doesn't take a high degree of sophistication or expense to have a redundant navigation system completely independent from the whole boat electronics.
My notebook runs for up to 7 hours or so on battery. This means that even with the WHOLE boat electrical system completely disabled, I still have full redundancy for navigation. And yes, the engines would still be running, 'cause they are completely mechanic.
I think it's more silly to suggest that a jetliner could bring you back in one piece, if all of its electronic systems would be completely disabled.

And re. CTS, I struggle to enlighten you because I fail to understand what exactly you are doing on paper that the plotter can't handle.
Also because you already acknowledged that it's sufficient to use the track function and have the a/p driven by the plotter, hence not even bothering about the CTS at all.
You did mention also "for a short journey" though, which is the bit I don't understand.
Why wouldn't you do the same also with a multiple wp route, and/or for a 1000nm distant wp?

As I said, if the journey is less than an hour or so, the plotter can allow for tide and leeway by using the track function, which for all intents and purposes is the same as calculating course to steer.

If the tidal stream if going to change appreciably during your trip, then the track function will have you fighting that tide for the whole of your journey, as all it can do is minimise your XTE. It cannot predict what the tide will do and make an allowance for it in advance. As the flow is stronger, the change greater and the boat speed slower this is increasingly significant.

You dont have tidal steams to worry about so minimising XTE will be fine for you.

Cross channel here it makes a difference, especially at D speed.


And no one has said anything about the sheer pleasure of looking at a new set of charts, anticipating good times ahead.
I never get that from panning around a new chip.

 

[DAKA]

Its true you can do it on blank paper. But its easier to do it on a chart so why would you.
Show me how OPen CPN can do it over multiple hours. Maybe you are right and it has come on, but i've never seen it.
And no plotters can.

Belfield predicts your track (bent line adjusted for the tide effects to take advantage of the tide), you have to predict your cruising speed on the day and it estimates your progress each 15 mins) .

Is that what you are doing on paper each time to go round a ship

 

[Neil_Y]

I see the problem with electronics as being that they don't fail safe, they can fail for a number of reasons, damage cracked screen, moisture ingress, power failure, gps signal failure(unlikely)

I've had three separate units fail within a few hours, paper was the only option then.

Drop a paper chart and it wont break.

I've also navigated with hand held gps/chart with gps back up and laminated charts in that order, interestingly when we were close to shore at speeds of 20-22knts (racing so cutting corners near rocks when we could) The quick over view of an A4 chart was very useful, the handheld chart couldn't quickly zoom in and out in the way that you can with a detailed chart of A4 size, the paper chart could also quickly be stuffed into your jacket if both hands were needed when we hit waves.

 

[Elessar]

Belfield predicts your track (bent line adjusted for the tide effects to take advantage of the tide), you have to predict your cruising speed on the day and it estimates your progress each 15 mins) .

Is that what you are doing on paper each time to go round a ship

Ok. Sound good can you show me a copy would like to see it. Still no plotters do it.

Still won't give me pleasure like a paper chart does.

I only use paper as the back up day to day, but I still like it to be there.

 

[TQA]

Remember if it is a piece of electronic equipment it is not IF it will fail it is WHEN.

That plus lightning strikes and charging systems failures convinces me to carry paper charts.

 

[Elessar]

I still have paper charts on board and find them very useful, stuffed under the bed mattress, they insulate the cold fibreglass and prevent damp.

As to useful for navigation total rollocks !


1) I start with belfield to see where the current is flowing.

CTS is calculated automatically on Belfield , (however I question the necessity for this forum who cruise almost exclusively @ 20-25knts ).


2)
I check the Ipad to see where the waves are going.
3)
back to belfild to plot a rough course , tide with waves where possible, time to leave.
4)
Plot an accurate course on the ipad navionics, and scroll down the route in zoom in mode to check for hazards.
jot the waypoints down (only bit of paper used in order to comply with passage planning regulations and back up).
5)
transfer the waypoints to the plotter.

6)
Course to steer is adjusted at the helm on the day, Belfield will have shown me the predicted effects of the tide however on the day other factors come into play on small boats , the effect of rolling fog, huge ships/raggies to go round or pounding waves knocking your bow off course for example , so its adjusted every 15 mins or so after checking the plotter, I cant believe anyone keeps drawing pencil lines each time they go round a ship.

7) back up
Hand held VHF , mini GPS and battery back up stored inside an insulated metal box inside the metal oven for protection from lightning strikes.


I remain concerned about a direct lightning strike, alright I have my hand held gps and waypoints but modern diesels stop without electrics as the fuel stop solenoid will automatically close, even if you bypass the solenoid, none have hand crank abilities.

I question the die hard paper chart salty seadogs, I dont think have have thought this one through, whats the plan ?

drop anchor, wait for favourable wind/ tide to drift in the right direction , calculate when the tide turns and drop anchor again until you eventually safely navigate back to the solent

Re question the necessity.

Southampton to St. Peter port. Near as dammit 100 miles over ground.

Planned properly, at 20 knots, 90 miles over water. 110 miles at worst case scenario. So an hour shorter and 80-90 litres best v worst.

At D speed because i don't go charging everywhere, the benefit of proper planning is far more pronounced.

 

[oceanfroggie]

Remember if it is a piece of electronic equipment it is not IF it will fail it is WHEN.

That plus lightning strikes and charging systems failures convinces me to carry paper charts.

But every Boeing or Airbus you've flown on for the past 20years uses electronics to navigate, and fly, and land!

As I said the point is the need for redundant systems, backups and alternatives.

Redundant systems and nav alternatives on board OF

• Fixed plotter (uses two constellations GPS and Glonass)
• Radar
• Portable battery powered plotter with own antenna
• HH plotter
• iPad (battery powered)
• iPhone (battery powered)
• Compass
• HBC
• Depth Sounder

If caught in a thunderstorm just put smartphone, HH VHF and HH GPS in microwave oven. It will act as a cage and protect the kit in the extremely unlikely event of a strike. Ability to navigate will be the least of anybodies worry if lightening strikes the vessel.

 

[DAKA]

Re question the necessity.

Southampton to St. Peter port. Near as dammit 100 miles over ground.

Planned properly, at 20 knots, 90 miles over water. 110 miles at worst case scenario. So an hour shorter and 80-90 litres best v worst.

At D speed because i don't go charging everywhere, the benefit of proper planning is far more pronounced.

Can we just clarify exactly what you are doing here because I think Belfield solves both problems.
(last time I went from Chichester to Beaucette in my P360 it was 3hrs 50mins , Belfield paperless got the tide about right !)

110 nm to 90 nm is just having a tidal push from the Nab through the race.
belfield does that each and every hour at the press of a button.


Beyond that I used to also use the exact tidal push for direct too.

ie/ my over the ground track wast a perfect straight line, my belfield over the ground track would aim for Cherbourg knowing that the tidal push would take me towards the race, in your case if you are that slow and encountering two directions of tide the belfield predicted over the ground S track would result in a straight compass line for you to follow, its actually easier for slow boats !

Max saving there in the reducing arch is 5 nm, I realised that it didnt really work as it takes about 1nm to go round each ship , I decided best to 'free cruise' and adjust after each ship.

Do you get the tidal stream atlas out each time you encounter a ship in the way ?


Have you seen IPad tidal Atlas ?????

(thanks to OceanFroggie for helping me get the most out of it this year )

 

[DAKA]

Ability to navigate will be the least of anybodies worry if lightening strikes the vessel.

Absolutely right , without a sail navigation is as useless as the paper charts

 

[penfold]

It never has been for the leisure boater.

Are you absolutely sure of that I know the written log and paper chart can be accepted as a legal document in court.

Absolutely. They can be accepted as evidence, if they exist, but there is no legal requirement for a leisure boater to keep a log or any record of their passage.

Slightly OT, but some insurance policys specify in the small print that written passage plans are kept; I'm sure most people don't bother, I know I don't for local voyages(although I know a chap who does religiously complete them after the event!).

 

[Gwylan]

now that I agree with but still a supplement to the plotter or other electronic device imo. it's the plotting (writing it down) on paper bit that I have issue with... for now, until someone is able to sell me the idea of why it's worth the effort in doing so

For me the plotting and the planning is because when it all goes t.u. and we have the 'blue screen of death' or the mast falls off we will have some fall back plans. Won't we?

Well that's why I have an exercise book that I scribble the plan in. The weather, the channels to call, critical way-points, lights on the way. A quick sum about when we should leave in order to arrive. Any limits of water and time etc at the arrival point - so we do not arrive to find no water or a raging ebb tide.
Then in a quiet page, the crew do not see, there's the possible refuges on the way.

None of it would satisfy any examiner or planning freak, but it makes me feel better and it has come in handy when we do not make the progress we expected or the weather goes seriously off.

So, my vote stays with a decent, relevant scale chart, the Yeoman and my trusty Philips gps - which still displays the wrong date.

 

[Mariner69]

Absolutely. They can be accepted as evidence, if they exist, but there is no legal requirement for a leisure boater to keep a log or any record of their passage.

I would respectfully suggest that within your heart you may be mistaken in your statement. So far as I am aware SOLAS Chapter V: Safety of navigation. Regulation 19 Carriage requirements for Shipborne navigational systems and equipment states at

2. Shipborne navigational systems and equipment

2.1 All ships, IRRESPECTIVE OF SIZE, (my emphasis) shall have:

2.1.1 a properly adjusted standard magnetic compass.....

2.1.2 a pelorus or compass bearing device.....

2.1.4 nautical charts...publications to plan and display the ship's route for the intended voyage and TO PLOT AND MONITOR POSITIONS THROUGHOUT THE VOYAGE; an electronic chart display and information system (ECDS) may be accepted as meeting the chart carriage requirements of this subparagraph;

2.1.7 if less than 150 gross tonnage and if practice able, a radar reflector or other means, to enable detection by ships navigating by radar at both 9 and 3 GHz;

The regulation then goes on to define rules for larger vessels.

Regulation 34 Safe navigation and avoidance of dangerous situations refers to passage plans which the MCA has shown some interest in.

 

[DAKA]

Ok. Sound good can you show me a copy would like to see it. Still no plotters do it.

http://www.chartsandtides.co.uk/tideplotter/streams



Belfield gives me the shortest course to steer .

I have 3 independent GPS systems including one which isnt connected to any boat electrics.

Belfield will not run on an ipad, its a pain having to take a laptop just for belfield but it offers another backup route planner (assuming you remember to put it in the oven)

 

[Elessar]

http://www.chartsandtides.co.uk/tideplotter/streams



Belfield gives me the shortest course to steer .

I have 3 independent GPS systems including one which isnt connected to any boat electrics.

Belfield will not run on an ipad, its a pain having to take a laptop just for belfield but it offers another backup route planner (assuming you remember to put it in the oven)

yes I agree that appears to do a proper CTS. Not tested it's accuracy but it does appear to.

But I won't bother because it's so much easier to do it on paper and it saves me having to keep a PC charged.

If the belfield drove the ships nav gear that would be a game changer though.

 

[l'escargot]

Slightly OT, but some insurance policys specify in the small print that written passage plans are kept; I'm sure most people don't bother, I know I don't for local voyages(although I know a chap who does religiously complete them after the event!).

Which ones? I've never seen it and I've insured 4 boats with at least 6 insurance companies.

 

[l'escargot]

I would respectfully suggest that within your heart you may be mistaken in your statement...

No I'm not. Most of SOLAS V isn't applicable to pleasure vessels of less than 150 gt - you'd be fitting all sorts of pumps and fire fighting equipment as well if it were. The bits that are relevant to pleasure vessels under 150 gt are:

Radar Reflectors - Regulation 19
Lifesaving Signals - Regulation 29
Danger Messages - Regulations 31 & 32
Distress Messages - Regulation 33
Voyage / Passage Planning - Regulation 34
Misuse of Distress Signals - Regulation 35

and nothing in passage planning specifies that it must be a written plan.

 

[DAKA]

yes I agree that appears to do a proper CTS. Not tested it's accuracy but it does appear to.

But I won't bother because it's so much easier to do it on paper and it saves me having to keep a PC charged.

If the belfield drove the ships nav gear that would be a game changer though.

Paper CTS for me was done 0030hrs to 0230 Friday night after a few beers , took at least 30 mins , Belfield is more accurate and takes 3-5 mins max.

I cant understand how you can do it easier or quicker.

Belfield automatically gives you today BST, automatically works out exact tide rate for the day not a average of spring/neap

It calculates the entire route making allowance for the time it takes you along the route.

I cant understand how you can open a tide atlas, check which primary is relevant and then add an hour before marking an arrow across your chart every hour , calculating difference between spring/neap rate ?

when you get to Alderney race you have another tide atlas page to find and another primary to look up ????

what am I missing ?