Are modern yachts designed wrong?

[Tranona]

This is an interesting toilet drift. I do still wonder about the dilution rate of waste into an anchorage. I assume that the seals, birds and fish etc don't use a holding tank so I would not expect 1 or 2 humans to make much of a difference. That and the toilets action generally being macerating I would expect that the actual pollution problem would be next to zero unless it was a very busy enclosed anchorage. I know that might all be a bit non-pc but those are my thoughts. I think if building new you have to do it right even if you don't agree with the reason why and I don't think there would be much of a problem with the setup as described above. The only worry would be having a deck fitting for access as I like minimal numbers of holes in things that might leak. That, however, is probably because my boat already leaks enough!

Perhaps you need to recognise that not everybody boats in sparsely populated tidal waters. Suggest you look at a typical bay in the eastern Med where there is no tidal flow and 10 charter boats with 6 people on board are anchored for lunch stop. All want a swim, but also want to feast on lunch and do their bit for reducing the EU wine and beer lakes. Their personal holding tanks are limited and they prefer not to swim in water polluted by effluent from others! An onboard holding tank assume a new importance.

 

[prv]

Perhaps you need to recognise that not everybody boats in sparsely populated tidal waters. Suggest you look at a typical bay in the eastern Med where there is no tidal flow and 10 charter boats with 6 people on board are anchored for lunch stop. All want a swim, but also want to feast on lunch and do their bit for reducing the EU wine and beer lakes. Their personal holding tanks are limited and they prefer not to swim in water polluted by effluent from others! An onboard holding tank assume a new importance.

Absolutely - holding tanks are morally mandatory in the Med and similar places.

Pete

 

[Javelin]

From a repairers point of view - YES.

So many have been designed with little thought to maintenance and repairs and in quite a few occasions simple wear and tear rectification.

So many have a racy look but the look is as far as it goes because the substance is far from racy.
High class winches in the visible cockpit areas but with cheap and nasty plain sheave blocks at the mast base with very poor backing plates if any holing fittings to the deck.
Hull decks bonded together rather than laminated, mild steel keelbolts, (interestingly in First's) tanks fitted with absolutely no thought on how they would be removed in future.
The use of so-called veneered waterproof mdf which frankly isn't.
We've even seen cases where we've had to cut a whole section out of the side of the hull to remove an engine.
Boats where when I apply 20% loading on the rigging you can't close the doors below.

Then we move on the over wide at the stern boats with fine bows that when heeled go nose down.
Leading to many being under ruddered and some under keeled.

Ok much of these are build issues but the designer still deserves his share of abuse.

 

[Robin]

In my opinion the best system is one in which the normal discharge goes through the tank. This minimises the number of valves and connections and the length of hose involved, and means you don't need a pump that can block or break down. If you don't want to store the waste, you simply leave the valve at the bottom of the tank open and it falls straight through and out of the boat. You also don't need to worry about an anti-siphon valve on the outlet (still need one on the inlet) because water won't siphon up through a tank.

The tank should be tall and narrow, and mounted as high as practical so that there's plenty of gravity to pull the contents out when you use it and then want to empty it. Consider using a 2" outlet seacock, and then anything that went in through the (1.5") heads plumbing will definitely fit out ok. The outlet seacock should be directly below the tank, and there should be a deck opening directly above it - so that if the outlet ever does block you can simply open the deck fitting and poke a long stick right down through the tank and outlet and thus clear it without having to take anything apart. If there is any significant length of hose between the bottom of the tank and the seacock, consider using an additional valve mounted directly on the tank as the "holding" valve. If instead you simply close the seacock, solids (mostly loo paper) may settle in the hose above it and form a blockage; the longer the hose the more solid the blockage. You should have a large (1.5") breather from the top of the tank with as short a hose as possible - paradoxically, tanks smell less if they have good air movement. Because the breather is also the overflow, it should be in the topsides so that if it ever does vent liquid it will do so overboard and not onto the deck!

Use quality hose, as stuff permeating through the hose walls is a common cause of stinky heads compartments. I used ASAP's Seaflow butyl hose, on recommendation from JFM who specified it for his baby superyacht over on the mobo forum. Some people instead advocate using rigid PVC waste pipe with solvent-welded joints, as for domestic plumbing. This is a fit-and-forget solution (house piping doesn't start to smell after five or ten years) which may not be practical to retro-fit to a production yacht but might be feasible in a new-build. Might need short lengths of hose as "adaptors" onto eg the toilet outlet, but weld-on fittings should be obtainable for the tank end. I might additionally consider hose for the seacock to tank part, as being more of a known quantity at sea.

Whatever you do, don't consider any kind of metal tank. You want 10mm welded polypropylene as made by Tek-Tanks and some other lesser-known firms. Urine and seawater is a corrosive mix!

Pete

OUR current French built Benny Oceanis 36Cc came fitted with a system much as you describe. We can dump, pump and dump directly if outside the 3 mile limit OR we can send it all to the holding tank and store it either to be pumped out when back in our berth ( bertholders get a free punpout service from the poop boat, which operates twice a week or on request) or on the fuel dock, most marinas here offer a free pumpout for all, with a fuel purchase Or if out out at sea we can open the seacock and dump the entire holding tank contents by gravity in a just a few minutes. As a routine because here in Florida it is a fining offence to break the discharge rules, we have the diverter Y-valve locked in position to send all to the tall narrow holding tank and the outlet from that which is directly below it is also routinely locked shut. the difference is that hereabouts there are plenty of convenient pumpout stations so it is no hassle really to use the tank all the time., only if out in the Bahamas are pumpout stations few and far between ( I'm told, yet to test that in practice ) so when there we may need to take an occasional sail out and away from the anchorages to feed the sharks. I do have reservations over the need to store simple liquid waste especially when it is mixed with plenty of flush water anyway, but cannot argue with holding tanks otherwise.

We had a differentsystem on our last UK boat, fitted by the previous owners for Med use, we never once had that pumped out but did it ourselves at sea, The tank was mounted low down and would not gravity drain so had a manual pump.

 

[jordanbasset]

We found our 2003 Bavaria 38 just about as good as we could expect/need for us. A good size cockpit, which we could both lay flat out on. Easy to handle furling main and genny, Reliable engine, easy to work on, plenty of locker and hanging locker space, a good size chart table. We did change the heads arrangement so it could be, if wanted, pumped direct to sea, useful if you are holed up in a harbour for a few days and do not want to fill the holding tank up with number 1's.
When we buy our next boat it will probably be a Bavaria 30, as we will not be living aboard for more than 8 weeks at a time we do not need something so big.
Different people want different things, it worked for us but can understand others wanting something different

 

[snooks]

)Do people simply like a racey boat even if they never see the benefit of it? What does the panel think

I think you should experience more boats, maybe then the penny will drop

I see phrases like "'skittishness' of fin keels" and I wonder how you can group together boats so bluntly? Sure they might feel skittish compared to a long keel boat with the turning ability of a train, but trimmed properly most will sail themselves. Fin keels range from long FIN keels, encapsulated like those on the Rustler 37, or skinny inverted T shaped FIN keels found on the Elan 360s for example. Both roughly the same size, both a world apart in design, build quality, displacement and price. There will be nothing skittish about the Ruster 37 I can assure you. Just like there is nothing skittish about the GT35 her displacement alone sees to that.

How do you rate centre board yachts? Surely with no keel or ballast in the fin these will be flying around like no tomorrow? Go and sail on Jimmy Cornell's new boat. 45ft boat, 14 tonnes as skittish as a statue!

Just because you want a long keeled 40 footer, it doesn't make the rest of us wrong. Just because a boat can go faster than your long keeler it doesn't automatically mean it will be less comfortable. Sailing off the wind in a figaro 33 at 9 knots was no less comfortable than doing the 6 knots on my Sadler 32. It was a lot more fun infact, but we don't go sailing for fun now do we?....Ahhhh

Yacht design has evolved. "Fin" keels are faster than long keels. Long fin keels are faster and offer similar directional stability than trad long keels. Why would Rustler replace their long keel 36 with a fin keel 37?

You might also want to calibrate your log too

 

[Twister_Ken]

Snooks makes a good point about 'skittishness. Both my Twister (loooong keel) and my Arcona (short, deep keel with a bulb) will sail to windward with the helm untouched.

 

[snooks]

Snooks makes a good point about 'skittishness. Both my Twister (loooong keel) and my Arcona (short, deep keel with a bulb) will sail to windward with the helm untouched.

I think you have to look deeper Ken and see what they both have in common......

If a fin keeler isn't out performing a long keeler of the same size...it might not be the "fault" of the boat....

Then again, people sail differently for a number of reasons, I currently sail to keep my 2 ear old daughter happy, if that means a bit of motor sailing into a nice sailing breeze or not flying the spinnaker, so be it.

The alternative is not going sailing...

 

[pmagowan]

I think you should experience more boats, maybe then the penny will drop

I see phrases like "'skittishness' of fin keels" and I wonder how you can group together boats so bluntly? Sure they might feel skittish compared to a long keel boat with the turning ability of a train, but trimmed properly most will sail themselves. Fin keels range from long FIN keels, encapsulated like those on the Rustler 37, or skinny inverted T shaped FIN keels found on the Elan 360s for example. Both roughly the same size, both a world apart in design, build quality, displacement and price. There will be nothing skittish about the Ruster 37 I can assure you. Just like there is nothing skittish about the GT35 her displacement alone sees to that.

How do you rate centre board yachts? Surely with no keel or ballast in the fin these will be flying around like no tomorrow? Go and sail on Jimmy Cornell's new boat. 45ft boat, 14 tonnes as skittish as a statue!

Just because you want a long keeled 40 footer, it doesn't make the rest of us wrong. Just because a boat can go faster than your long keeler it doesn't automatically mean it will be less comfortable. Sailing off the wind in a figaro 33 at 9 knots was no less comfortable than doing the 6 knots on my Sadler 32. It was a lot more fun infact, but we don't go sailing for fun now do we?....Ahhhh

Yacht design has evolved. "Fin" keels are faster than long keels. Long fin keels are faster and offer similar directional stability than trad long keels. Why would Rustler replace their long keel 36 with a fin keel 37?

You might also want to calibrate your log too

I know what you mean about the log but those are calibrated. We outperform a 38' boat that we sail with (another long keeler) but I am thrashing the engine to get 7 knots and people more respectful of the iron sail would not push it that hard. We are probably oversailed and I was very surprised by her performance as when we planned our first cruise in her I was expecting to always be an hour or so late into harbour compared to the 38' Buchanan. Perhaps I just sail and motor hard and they don't, certainly I trust my engine more than they do.

I have sailed all my life so have been in many boats of different types from Optimists, mirrors, lasers at one end, my grandmothers 38' long keeler has been a constant, and my friends who have taken me cruising since childhood who change boat every few years and prefer modern GRP. We met up with a friend last season on the west coast, us in my 28' Honeybee and them in their 72' aerorig one-off. I won't say I have tried every type as that is not possible and there is a great difference between skippering, crewing, sailing in general, and designing. I do know that those with fin keels have had worrying accidents from time to time when taking ground inadvertantly and are prone to sucking up pot lines whereas our long keelers have never had those issues (however that may be due to more miles and more adventurous miles, I don't know).

I am not saying that one type is bad and the other good as that would be wrong but I am trying to decide on what type I would design into a 40' yacht that is for me and me alone. Each has their pros and cons and I have been, all my life, an admirer of old yachts. I am used to long keels and many of the problems that people accuse them of don't seem such big issues to me. They, of course, can not outperform a modern design but my musings are about whether that last 20% of performance is generally used by people cruising. It is vital for racers but the only racing I am interested in is the type where you see a yacht on the same heading and so you race for fun unsure of whether the other yacht knows it.

I guess my problem is that I am biased towards long keels but worried that nobody else uses them any more and if I built one into my design I would be making a mistake. I want to know if there is anything so much better about them that I haven't thought about. If it simply comes down to a small difference in speed compared to the security I would feel with a rugged long keeler then I know which way I would go.

 

[onesea]

Every boat is a compromise.

If you want speed: deep thin Fin and bulb keel, decent rudders, light weight, good rigging leavers, low wetted surface area to a good design.

Of you want to win races you want the above with design compromised to fit latest racing rules.

If you want apracticale cruising boat, the designer really starts to compromise from speed.

Better protected keel and rudders, more weight carrying ability, easier sail handling equipment, more alowance for stores, anchor and chain, toilet shower, more fresh water, more accommodation space below the list goes on.

The comprise is always made, even long keel boats have comprises.

More freeboard/ less freeboard more cutaway forward less. How fine lined they where, how heavily built they where.

Each to there own taste.

When we looked for our present boat, one we looked at was a moody. The broker got excited when she said I like this one, she did not finish her sentence until she got in the car. We are not ready for that yet.

Instead we bought the fastest boat we could afford in our size range.

Few creature comforts, running back stays, of we want a lazy day we forget about putting up the number one. By the time it's blowing f6 we are double reefed and working hard to keep the boat balanced. It is great fun but not the boat we would chose for extended cruising but that is fine by us.

I grew up with long keel boats and would happily go back to one but it would be a change of style in sailing. Certainly more comfortable and confident in a blow at sea, a tad slower and less comfortable below by modern standard.

Your modern AWB suits your modern family she is a comprise. There will always be faster or slower and more comfortable varieties.

As for constructing boats to light or to budget that has always gone on.

Sawn wooden frames are not as good as grown ones, how thick does a plank or rib need to be? What material is best or can you afford?

One I can remember is Hilyards often suffer from broken ribs, to cheaply /lightly built?

 

[pmagowan]

Snooks makes a good point about 'skittishness. Both my Twister (loooong keel) and my Arcona (short, deep keel with a bulb) will sail to windward with the helm untouched.

Perhaps that was the wrong word as skitishness to me could be maneuverability to someone else. I find the fin keelers I have been on more liable to rounding up and requiring a bit more adjustment to get 'right'. Of course that could just be me but it stands to reason that if you can turn on a dime then you are more likely to turn on a dime while sailing. My friends were amazed when we sailed together and we went South round Ardnamurchin in bad conditions when they thought we would stay in port as they were in a ?45' Bene and didn't think our 28' honeybee would like it too much. She does carve rather nicely through the swell and chop but it certainly would have been more comfortable to be in the Bene!

 

[snooks]

I find there a big difference in speed and manoeuvrability and no difference in security.

If I were in your shoes I'd be looking at a long fin and a skeg, may be something like a bigger CO32, but with a 3/4 skeg to give it a bit of balance and reduce the weight on the helm - Then again after sailing a long keeler for so long, you probably have arms like popeye anyway!!

Have a look at the underwater profile of the Rustler 42. Which might not scare you too much and also might not scare anyone else wanting to buy your boat in the future.

 

[pmagowan]

Yes Onesea, I think you are right. I suppose it comes down to where you decide to make the compromises. If I build this boat I would intend to keep it. I might take it to Norway or further afield. I would want it to be strong and able to handle anything that I might throw at it. I like seaking out unusual places and in my long keeler I dont have to worry about touching bottom. I like a good sail with gunnals wet but I also like some comfort onboard with a fine store of drink! OUr current 28' Honeybee is too small to have much in the way of mod-cons but we have her as comfortable as we can get her and in restoration I had to replace many parts and dig out some rot. We still need to bite the bullet and replace the deck which I will do as soon as I decide to get her into our shed at home. She cost very little and she sails well, looks nice and gets us to fun places and interesting people.

 

[pmagowan]

I find there a big difference in speed and manoeuvrability and no difference in security.

If I were in your shoes I'd be looking at a long fin and a skeg, may be something like a bigger CO32, but with a 3/4 skeg to give it a bit of balance and reduce the weight on the helm - Then again after sailing a long keeler for so long, you probably have arms like popeye anyway!!

Have a look at the underwater profile of the Rustler 42. Which might not scare you too much and also might not scare anyone else wanting to buy your boat in the future.

Our boat is surprisingly light on the tillar now that we have a new for'sail that is better balanced. You tend to balance her on the sails and then leave only a bit of weatherhelm on the tillar. In fact I can let the tiller go and she carries on with only a slow wide arc. It can be different in a big sea where a lot more tiller work may be required but often I think it cancels itself out so you can let her go off one way and then come back the next time. Steering under steam is more arduous due to the prop putting a lot of force over the rudder but then you are normally going in a straight line when at speed and when mooring you have to use alternative steering techniques.

I have to say the rustler looks very good and that keel plan is not too scary. I don't se any ballance on the rudder but I am used to that.

 

[st599]

Yes Onesea, I think you are right. I suppose it comes down to where you decide to make the compromises. If I build this boat I would intend to keep it. I might take it to Norway or further afield. I would want it to be strong and able to handle anything that I might throw at it. I like seaking out unusual places and in my long keeler I dont have to worry about touching bottom. I like a good sail with gunnals wet but I also like some comfort onboard with a fine store of drink! OUr current 28' Honeybee is too small to have much in the way of mod-cons but we have her as comfortable as we can get her and in restoration I had to replace many parts and dig out some rot. We still need to bite the bullet and replace the deck which I will do as soon as I decide to get her into our shed at home. She cost very little and she sails well, looks nice and gets us to fun places and interesting people.

I recently had a crawl around a Garcia Exploration 45.

Something like that would be my ideal boat. Aluminium, can take the ground, reasonably fast, big catamaran-esque saloon/doghouse with all-round visibility and internal steering position, sleeping for 8, self-sufficient for power and a proper comfy navigator's seat.

 

[pmagowan]

I recently had a crawl around a Garcia Exploration 45.

Something like that would be my ideal boat. Aluminium, can take the ground, reasonably fast, big catamaran-esque saloon/doghouse with all-round visibility and internal steering position, sleeping for 8, self-sufficient for power and a proper comfy navigator's seat.

Certainly an impressive boat but to me it looks too aggressive, each to their own

 

[flaming]

each to their own

Which is surely the only conclusion that has ever been reached from any of these frequent "are modern boats rubbish" threads.

 

[Greenheart]

Which is surely the only conclusion that has ever been reached from any of these frequent "are modern boats rubbish" threads.

Good point.

Slightly separate issue, but maybe someone can tell me, I'm interested...has a long keel ever fallen off a yacht mid-ocean?

 

[Tomahawk]

Just a thought I was having as pondering how I would design a 40 foot sloop. .... Do people simply like a racey boat even if they never see the benefit of it? What does the panel think

Whenever I see this question I am tempted to think of a motoring analogy which wold be something like:-

Why don't car manufacturers make cars like the Mark II Cortina any more? And we know the answer. Because design and technology has changed a lot in the past 30 years.

Why would anyine want a 30 year old design?

 

[30boat]

Which is surely the only conclusion that has ever been reached from any of these frequent "are modern boats rubbish" threads.

Exactly.I love the lines of many modern yachts and their aggressiveness.Old boats are indeed beautiful but frankly do nothing for me.I like a reasonably traditional interior a la J35 with white panels and wooden trim because it's warm and pleasant.But most traditonally stiled boats are based on old ideas and technology and science has moved on.We don't have to go crazy and have carbon fiber eerywhere but I for one love a modern efficient and great looking plumb stemmed boat!