Are modern yachts designed wrong?

[prv]

I have come to the conclusion with the heads that you buy a cheap Jabsco thing and if it gives problems throw it overboard and buy a new one!

Ah, possibly talking at cross purposes - I was talking about the heads compartment, not the contraption itself. I agree that a semi-disposable Jabsco is a good approach to that, though I'd suggest replacing just the pump rather than the whole thing.

That brings me to another point, however, as my boat has no holding tank and I suppose if I build a new one this would be required. I don't like these things at all and I don't see the need (but maybe I am odd). If in port you use the land based facilities and if at sea it matters not. The idea of collecting waste seems like a disaster waiting to happen.

I'm inclined to agree, and we actually removed the holding tank that our boat came with. Or rather, it needed to go because it was starting to leak, but we decided not to replace it. It took up a lot of space in a cockpit locker that is still too small even without it. For cruising the central Channel I don't think we really need it, though the option of fitting one is still there.

If you're building the boat from scratch I think it would be short-sighted not to include one. And because you're building from scratch, you can include a good reliable system instead of an unreliable bodge job.

Pete

 

[joha]

Yes, but my point is that my boat is restricted in speed due to hull length not fancy keels. I have been on larger yachts up to 70 odd feet but it seems that you reach a happy medium about 40 feet. I don't know that a 40' long keeler would be slower than a 40' fin keeler except in race conditions. I think the limiting factor is normally the skipper and crew rather than the shape of the keel and since most people are cruising at a speed they think is comfortable then I suspect that they will average out about the same.

Have had a voyager 35 for a couple of years now and one reason I bought her was for the dual steering position one inside one outside. She has a longish keel with the rudder hung off the back of it. She isn't that much slower than modern boats ie Yarmouth to Cherbourg in a 4 gusting top end of a 5 arrived in 10 and three quarter hours ahead of a Bene 36 which left at the same time we slowly pulled away and didn't need to stop and reef when it started to get to the top end of a 5 very sea kindly motion and doesn't slam. Another time little or no wind and with the engine, arrived at the same time as an HR and a Dufour of about the same size. Have sailed a variety of boats over the years from a Swan 70, Dufour 36 & the older 35, Westerly Ocean lord, Sigma 362 and the 38 and I find that she can hold her own and not really that much slower. Yes she doesn't have two aft cabins but has loads more storage than some listed, has an amidships bunk that works well at sea and the saloon is light and airy and you can look out the windows too! The cockpit is deep and comfortable.

 

[pmagowan]

Well, you have missed your chance. The original Rustler 42 was cold moulded wood similar to the way you described. It lay unfinished for years waiting for somebody to buy it and finish it off. Not sure anybody took up the challenge.

BTW if constructed and installed properly, holding tanks can be trouble free. Easily done in a new build, not so easy in a retrofit. As with many things it is the bodges and cheapskate examples that give them a bad press. Plus spend a bit more than Jabsco money and install a Lavac.

Yes, but even if I spotted the perfect boat I wouldn't want to buy it, I want to build it....for fun!:disgust:

I think if I was building a 40 footer from scratch I would probably have to build in a proper system but I might not flick the lever to use the holding tank!

 

[Twister_Ken]

Excellent! Not sure I could be bothered with real teak myself - so much bother and expense - but it surely is the one thing any boat can have to be sure of beautifying.

View attachment 42958

Teak decks are great for the first owner. Somewhere down the line some poor sap of owner is going to have to replace it. Don't ask me how I know.

 

[prv]

I think if I was building a 40 footer from scratch I would probably have to build in a proper system but I might not flick the lever to use the holding tank!

In my opinion the best system is one in which the normal discharge goes through the tank. This minimises the number of valves and connections and the length of hose involved, and means you don't need a pump that can block or break down. If you don't want to store the waste, you simply leave the valve at the bottom of the tank open and it falls straight through and out of the boat. You also don't need to worry about an anti-siphon valve on the outlet (still need one on the inlet) because water won't siphon up through a tank.

The tank should be tall and narrow, and mounted as high as practical so that there's plenty of gravity to pull the contents out when you use it and then want to empty it. Consider using a 2" outlet seacock, and then anything that went in through the (1.5") heads plumbing will definitely fit out ok. The outlet seacock should be directly below the tank, and there should be a deck opening directly above it - so that if the outlet ever does block you can simply open the deck fitting and poke a long stick right down through the tank and outlet and thus clear it without having to take anything apart. If there is any significant length of hose between the bottom of the tank and the seacock, consider using an additional valve mounted directly on the tank as the "holding" valve. If instead you simply close the seacock, solids (mostly loo paper) may settle in the hose above it and form a blockage; the longer the hose the more solid the blockage. You should have a large (1.5") breather from the top of the tank with as short a hose as possible - paradoxically, tanks smell less if they have good air movement. Because the breather is also the overflow, it should be in the topsides so that if it ever does vent liquid it will do so overboard and not onto the deck!

Use quality hose, as stuff permeating through the hose walls is a common cause of stinky heads compartments. I used ASAP's Seaflow butyl hose, on recommendation from JFM who specified it for his baby superyacht over on the mobo forum. Some people instead advocate using rigid PVC waste pipe with solvent-welded joints, as for domestic plumbing. This is a fit-and-forget solution (house piping doesn't start to smell after five or ten years) which may not be practical to retro-fit to a production yacht but might be feasible in a new-build. Might need short lengths of hose as "adaptors" onto eg the toilet outlet, but weld-on fittings should be obtainable for the tank end. I might additionally consider hose for the seacock to tank part, as being more of a known quantity at sea.

Whatever you do, don't consider any kind of metal tank. You want 10mm welded polypropylene as made by Tek-Tanks and some other lesser-known firms. Urine and seawater is a corrosive mix!

Pete

 

[RupertW]

In my opinion the best system is one in which the normal discharge goes through the tank. This minimises the number of valves and connections and the length of hose involved, and means you don't need a pump that can block or break down. If you don't want to store the waste, you simply leave the valve at the bottom of the tank open and it falls straight through and out of the boat. You also don't need to worry about an anti-siphon valve on the outlet (still need one on the inlet) because water won't siphon up through a tank.

The tank should be tall and narrow, and mounted as high as practical so that there's plenty of gravity to pull the contents out when you use it and then want to empty it. Consider using a 2" outlet seacock, and then anything that went in through the (1.5") heads plumbing will definitely fit out ok. The outlet seacock should be directly below the tank, and there should be a deck opening directly above it - so that if the outlet ever does block you can simply open the deck fitting and poke a long stick right down through the tank and outlet and thus clear it without having to take anything apart. If there is any significant length of hose between the bottom of the tank and the seacock, consider using an additional valve mounted directly on the tank as the "holding" valve. If instead you simply close the seacock, solids (mostly loo paper) may settle in the hose above it and form a blockage; the longer the hose the more solid the blockage. You should have a large (1.5") breather from the top of the tank with as short a hose as possible - paradoxically, tanks smell less if they have good air movement. Because the breather is also the overflow, it should be in the topsides so that if it ever does vent liquid it will do so overboard and not onto the deck!

Use quality hose, as stuff permeating through the hose walls is a common cause of stinky heads compartments. I used ASAP's Seaflow butyl hose, on recommendation from JFM who specified it for his baby superyacht over on the mobo forum. Some people instead advocate using rigid PVC waste pipe with solvent-welded joints, as for domestic plumbing. This is a fit-and-forget solution (house piping doesn't start to smell after five or ten years) which may not be practical to retro-fit to a production yacht but might be feasible in a new-build. Might need short lengths of hose as "adaptors" onto eg the toilet outlet, but weld-on fittings should be obtainable for the tank end. I might additionally consider hose for the seacock to tank part, as being more of a known quantity at sea.

Whatever you do, don't consider any kind of metal tank. You want 10mm welded polypropylene as made by Tek-Tanks and some other lesser-known firms. Urine and seawater is a corrosive mix!

Pete

That's exactly our set up and work very well - except that we do have metal tanks which are 14 years old and very well used but show no signs of rusting or leaking so far.

They are vital for as we spend most nights at anchorages that we also swim in, and the water is clear enough to spot the very rare boats who flush directly.

 

[pvb]

Interesting thread, with some intriguing comments. I've just sold my 24 year old Hallberg-Rassy 352, a gorgeous boat which I'd loved and nurtured for 19 years. It was time to move on. But to what? In the end, I've ordered a new AWB, it'll be quicker, maybe not as comfortable at sea but more comfortable in port, it won't need things fixing constantly (at least for a few years, hopefully). Oh, and I've ordered "faux teak" decks! The whole thing's a compromise.

 

[pmagowan]

Have had a voyager 35 for a couple of years now and one reason I bought her was for the dual steering position one inside one outside. She has a longish keel with the rudder hung off the back of it. She isn't that much slower than modern boats ie Yarmouth to Cherbourg in a 4 gusting top end of a 5 arrived in 10 and three quarter hours ahead of a Bene 36 which left at the same time we slowly pulled away and didn't need to stop and reef when it started to get to the top end of a 5 very sea kindly motion and doesn't slam. Another time little or no wind and with the engine, arrived at the same time as an HR and a Dufour of about the same size. Have sailed a variety of boats over the years from a Swan 70, Dufour 36 & the older 35, Westerly Ocean lord, Sigma 362 and the 38 and I find that she can hold her own and not really that much slower. Yes she doesn't have two aft cabins but has loads more storage than some listed, has an amidships bunk that works well at sea and the saloon is light and airy and you can look out the windows too! The cockpit is deep and comfortable.

The Voyager looks very interesting.

 

[pmagowan]

Teak decks are great for the first owner. Somewhere down the line some poor sap of owner is going to have to replace it. Don't ask me how I know.

I know, my teak decks need replaced on my current boat. It doesn't bother me much I can't think of anything else I would rather replace it with. Plastic decks are like plastic flowers to me, they don't really do it!

 

[pmagowan]

That's exactly our set up and work very well - except that we do have metal tanks which are 14 years old and very well used but show no signs of rusting or leaking so far.

They are vital for as we spend most nights at anchorages that we also swim in, and the water is clear enough to spot the very rare boats who flush directly.

This is an interesting toilet drift. I do still wonder about the dilution rate of waste into an anchorage. I assume that the seals, birds and fish etc don't use a holding tank so I would not expect 1 or 2 humans to make much of a difference. That and the toilets action generally being macerating I would expect that the actual pollution problem would be next to zero unless it was a very busy enclosed anchorage. I know that might all be a bit non-pc but those are my thoughts. I think if building new you have to do it right even if you don't agree with the reason why and I don't think there would be much of a problem with the setup as described above. The only worry would be having a deck fitting for access as I like minimal numbers of holes in things that might leak. That, however, is probably because my boat already leaks enough!

 

[Neil_Y]

This is now an old boat, but design wise it's difficult to beat as a cruiser. Geoffrey, an architect did one round the world trip in a long keel heavy yacht and then decided to work with a designer and build a boat for his next trip. I stayed on her in 94 for a while, and it's amazing how everything has been thought through even to a system to collect rain water. This is a very simple easy to maintain boat that is safe and comfortable, with performance, still my ideal yacht. I grew up sailing Twisters, Rivals, Sweden, many race boats and did my own Atlantic circuit on a Bavaria. So far for long distance cruising Cetacea comes first and the Bavaria second.
http://www.rodgermartindesign.com/portfolio/cetacea-2/

 

[maby]

Teak decks are great for the first owner. Somewhere down the line some poor sap of owner is going to have to replace it. Don't ask me how I know.

They are not that good for the first owner - I spend half my time examining the deck, looking for stains or scuffs and dreading the day when it will need replacing!

 

[pvb]

They are not that good for the first owner - I spend half my time examining the deck, looking for stains or scuffs and dreading the day when it will need replacing!

That's one reason I chose "faux teak"!

 

[dunedin]

Perhaps speeds would be similar in stronger winds (although I doubt it), but in lighter airs a modern fin keeler would romp away from a long keeler, unless the latter had a cloud of sail, and a crew to fly it.
.

Agree entirely. For sailing pleasure a boat that sails well and fast in light and moderate winds is ideal for most coastal sailing. And shorter journey times are often more comfortable than longer times - fast does not always mean uncomfortable if well designed, and the sails are properly rigged / set (3 slab reefs, foam luff and good sails are essential for any keen sailor, IMHO)

Most coastal cruisers prefer to sail in moderate winds and shelter in gales - so a heavy long keeler often only really gets into its stride when most of us prefer not to be out anyway.
(Clearly the blue water "I want sail to to Greenland" brigade rightly may have other priorities)

 

[maby]

That's one reason I chose "faux teak"!

When the evil day comes, there will be absolutely nothing natural about the replacement on ours!

 

[maby]

I have to admit that my experience of the topic is zero, but I do wonder how much experience of sailing large long keelers those who come over dewy eyed of them have. Some very experienced friends of ours changed from a thirty-something foot fin keeled boat to a forty-something foot long keeled boat and had to change their berth - he reckoned that he was doing pretty well to hit the marina - forget about the finger berth they originally occupied! My 43' fin keeler spins on a sixpence even without the bow thruster!

 

[pmagowan]

They are not that good for the first owner - I spend half my time examining the deck, looking for stains or scuffs and dreading the day when it will need replacing!

See that is where you are going wrong. I don't worry about the deck that much, give it a bit of a scrub once or twice a year, otherwise it can turn whatever colour it likes. Once you are sailing it tends to clean itself and settle into its nice grey colour. Lovely non-slip surface. I don't think I would fancy trying to keep it looking smart!

 

[pmagowan]

I have to admit that my experience of the topic is zero, but I do wonder how much experience of sailing large long keelers those who come over dewy eyed of them have. Some very experienced friends of ours changed from a thirty-something foot fin keeled boat to a forty-something foot long keeled boat and had to change their berth - he reckoned that he was doing pretty well to hit the marina - forget about the finger berth they originally occupied! My 43' fin keeler spins on a sixpence even without the bow thruster!

See this is one of the things I don't get. Long keelers are not difficult to control they simply do things slowly. Of course when you compare it to a modern boat with 360 degree sail drive and a bow thruster there is no competition. The only time I have had problems in the marina was actually the last time I went out. I was just doing my slow spinning on the spot manoeuvre to get out, using prop walk and rudder wash, when the transmission cable fell off the gearbox in forward gear. It is amazing how much speed a long keeler can get up when you are stuck in forward gear. We gave the pontoon a good thump but the sweeping bow allowed us to ride up so defusing the impact. I looked at a lot of the modern boats around with sheer bows and I think if I had been in one of them we would have had a lot of repair work to do (of course they might not have had the problem). If we design a long keeler with a bow thruster then I don't see why there would be a problem. In fact I often watch people coming in in their modern boats with thrusters blasting and they still manage to balls it up, normally because they get blown off etc which is a fault of these boats with only a cocktail-stick for a keel!

 

[johnphilip]

I think a lot of it is that people mostly sprint from port to port rather than spend weeks at sea.

So a boat that is rewarding to sail with good helm response and can usually get in before bad weather is attractive rather than a plodder, for the average man & wife team.

Indeed so, we like a bit of fun when sailing.

 

[Quandary]

My berth is a very attractive 10m long timber jetty at the side of the Crinan canal overlooking the estuary of the Add with a wooded cliff face opposite, my neighbours are a family of ducks and a heron. Idyllic and totally secure but I can be at sea in 15-20 mins. I would be embarassed to reveal to you marina dwellers how little I pay for it. However to berth facing west I need to do a 180 turn in the canal which is just a bit wider than my boat length, there is often a fresh breeze from aft blowing down the gorge, with a modern deep fin keel in the centre of the hull the boat spins in her own length to lay comfortably beside the staging. I would be reluctant to try the manouvre with a fin keeler as if a three point turn was needed I would be blown on to where the canal narrows to about 6 m. When I do go to sea and put the sails up the exhilaration of 6kts only 40 degrees of the wind is another big source of enjoyment. However a long passage these days is less than fifty miles and I suspect it is the same for quite a few of us, if I was off across oceans I would need a different boat (and a divorce)!

I help a lot of boats with thrusters through the canal and am amazed at how unhandy many of them seem to be, even in this sheltered water.