Are modern racer/cruisers safe/suitable for family sailing too?

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ds797

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We all know about the sea-worthiness of boats like Contessa 32, Sadler 34 etc, but the modern boats are without doubt faster in light winds and flat water.

Do we think they are suitable for family sailing though? I'm not talking about an atlantic crossing, just family sailing, cross channel jaunts to France etc in a variety of weathers.

Examples of boats I am referring to: Beneteau First 34.7, X-35, Dehler 34rs, Elan 340 etc etc.

Thanks for your input.
 
Did a delivery trip on an Elan 333 some years ago-the sort of yacht you are thinking of. Sailed fine, if a bit rolly-polly downwind in a 5-6. Biggest problem was no real sea berths, no lee cloths, aft cabin not very practical at sea, and poor stowage for gear.

In general Dinette arrangements are not always the most user friendly on long passages and you need to assess the practicalities of using the galley at sea. Personally I wouldn't worry too much about the Heads-on a long bumpy passage they are often difficult to use, what with removing oilskins, etc. and a bucket is often much more practical .

I suspect that these comments would typically apply to the modern cruiser for which you are searching so suggest you itemize the cruising features you require, then find the yachts that fit the criteria and then assess the sailing capabilities of those on your short list.

Personally I should look for a modern boat with a bit of displacement. Its the bouncing about that wears out a crew. Also I should look for one with a reputation for being steady on the helm, not twitchy. It's no fun having a broad reach across the Channel if you have to twirl the wheel like a bus driver for 14 hours or so!

These comments are based on a fair bit of experience over 30 years of crossing the Channel, Irish Sea in 30-32 ft. boats and latterly the North Sea in a 37ft.yacht.
 
ds797 said:
We all know about the sea-worthiness of boats like Contessa 32, Sadler 34 etc, but the modern boats are without doubt faster in light winds and flat water.

Do we think they are suitable for family sailing though? I'm not talking about an atlantic crossing, just family sailing, cross channel jaunts to France etc in a variety of weathers.

Examples of boats I am referring to: Beneteau First 34.7, X-35, Dehler 34rs, Elan 340 etc etc.

Thanks for your input.
Click to expand...

Interesting choice of boats, I would suggest the X-34 would be a better bet for family cruising, the X-35 is a flightly beast designed primarily for one design racing. The 34 is the direct replacement for the X332.

On the main point though, and I doubt I'm going to make many friends here, but the new boats are not just "as good" they are better.
In comparrison to the older boats, they are faster and roomier, with better sail handling designed in.
And on the seaworthiness thing, anyone who wants to cruise a cruiser/racer has a, perhaps suprising, ally. The rating office.

Cruiser racers have always been designed with at least one eye on the predominant rating rule of the day. And since the death of IMS, the major rating rule has been the home grown IRC, administered by RORC.
Designers have long worked out what makes a boat fast under this rule, and it's really good news for cruisers. Unlike most other rating rules IRC makes no attempt to measure stability, meaning that unlike other rules it is not peanalised. So a nice heavy keel and a sensibly weighted hull are desirable.

When I first started racing IRC I had the same preconceptions about the "older" designs vs their modern cousins. And wasn't supprised that we (in an Elan 37) were much faster than the Sigma 38s in the light, due to our superior sail area and reduced wetted surface area. Then one day we lined up against them in 30kts. I was fully expecting the Sigmas to roll over us and dissapear upwind. But the result was the absolute opposite. We were faster, heeled less and hoby-horsed less. And won by a massive margin.

It is true that the older boats you mentioned, the Sadlers and the Contessas, have a rather different hull shape, and will arguably give a better ride in very rough conditions upwind. But how many family cruisers try to go to windward in F7+? Most cruisers will be running for shelter, and the hull shape of the newer boats is much better suited to going downwind in the heavy stuff.
 
Of course they are perfectly safe (unless the keel falls off :) )

The importance thing is to understand the limitations of you and your boat. I cannot think of any incidents where lives have been lost due to any issues with the design and construction of these boats when used for "family sailing" in and around the UK.

Problems have happened when people have tried to sail AWBs as if they were older more conservative designs. However for the sort of sailing you mention there would never be any reason to be out in conditions that you were not comfortable with.

For all I might respect the traditional sea-worthy designs (and I own and sail one) for the family sailing you mention the type of boat you mention are probably more appropriate, provided that the skipper is aware of the limitations.
 
One worry (but easily solved by a decent boatyard or good DIY) is the amount of space below. Great when parked but it can be bruise-inducing (or worse) when you're trying to move around below in a seaway. Often, there are insufficient pillars and grab rails fitted by manufacturers, but it's relatively easy to fit stuff post-purchase. I even remember seeing one boat with a removable 'bannister' along the centreline of the saloon. When not used, it was stored against the deckhead. On reflection, it was a bit bigger than 34 feet LOA though.
 
SEA-WORTHY is quite difficult to define.Do you go slowly and survive or do you swiftly sail out of trouble?
I have sailed a large variety of boats and think the the concept of sea-worthiness changes over time. Some of the traditional designs are stable but WET and some of the modern designs are faster but SLAM. In addition the SIZE of the yacht is all important.
After 14 boats I think I may have got it right at last.....43ft, 14tons, medium fin and skeg. Not the fastest boat for her size but 6knot passages come up regularly, often in very rough conditions.
In contrast I know a Swedish couple who have a 28ft, 4ton yacht and have been round the world twice.
It's a CHOICE thing!!!!!
 
Boats that race frequently need to be sailed over long distances between races - and so cover many more sea miles and to tighter deadlines than the typical "family cruiser". A delivery crew will also be the minimum number needed to handle the sails. Consequently, cruiser-races often put to sea in conditions that would see a cruising family remain in harbour and are not always handled by a full crew. The boats must be perfectly viable at sea or none of this would be possible. In fact, many races have far better sea berths (i.e. straight berths in the saloon) compared to cruisers and are more sea-worthy with small companionways, deeper cockpits, better draining, water-tight bulkheads etc. All that they lack is space when moored.
 
Does a boat like an X-332 really have less accomodation than a Contessa 32?

If you want lee cloths and a boat doesn't have them you fit them.

I've made good progress to windward in a F7 in an X-332 whilst cruising, on the other hand I've been stuck in a Hallberg Rassey when trying to make to windward against a F6 & a bit of tide. Ok we were sailing back and forth over the same space in perfect comfort, but...


You do need to have better trimming and helming skills to sail a cruiser racer in marginal conditions. If your helm is weaving about ten degrees either side of the close-hauled course you feel it more in a cruiser racer.

Similarly you will need to be able to trim the mainsail to depower it. It is certainly handy to have a spare crew member to handle the mainsheet.

I'd be opiniated and say that I think a cruiser-racer used for cruising should have a second and third reef. Not so sure a first reef is necessary as it would give little advantage if the mainsail is properly flattened using the controls available on a well-set-up fractionally-rigged boat.

I'd also say it would be worthwhile thinking about just having a No.3 headsail in the furler rather than trying to cope with a rolled up No.1 when the wind picks up. If you really want to go out and sail in light airs it is easier to change up to a No.1 then than it is to change down in a F6.
 
The boats you mention, perfectly seaworthy.
I would suggest though that you would need to have a reason to have one. I guess you have a mind to do some racing, fine. If not, then I feel the emphasis on speed might be a bit of a red herring.
Kurrawong Kid has given a measured and sensible response.....lets hope this does not degenerate into a "best boat/rubbish boat" thread, ignoring the OP. I don't hold out much hope though.
 
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give me a modern boat anyday. Drier faster pressure hot water etc. The reason they seem to slam is because they are going that much faster. Slow them down to 6 knots to windward (still faster than the old boats I've raced) and they don't slam.
 
Modern Boats

In 2007 we sold our Sigma 38 and bought a Finngulf 33, not a new design nor a dedicated racer but definitely a cruiser but with the 'modern' characteristics of the boats you mention, we cruise with just the odd passage race. (We are old duffers who have been sailing for nearly 40 years.)
The boat is sold and was purchased by us as a cruiser. Like the great British cruiser racers from the seventies, performance is not from weight reduction but from efficent hull and rig shape. However it makes consistently faster passages than the Sigma 38 did and about 12% faster than the Sigma 33 OD we used to race , it has a much higher aspect rig and has the same air draft and almost as much sail area as the much heavier 38, the waterline length is also proportionately greater. A lot of the weight is in an aerofoil lead bulb. Admittedly it is a narrow boat by todays standards but it has better stowage which compensates for the loss of a cabin.( You can stow the outboard upright on a pad inside one any of the three cockpit lockers.) What makes it a good cruiser is the sail handling systems - long travellers, efficient backstay adjustment, keel stepped mds mast with 8 wheel batten cars. projectable gennaker sprit, single line reefing, through deck furlex, powerful winches etc. some of these you find on racers but most are designed for cruising. This is part the Scandanavian attitude to performance, first pioneered by Swan and Sweden Yachts and reflected in Maxis, Arconas etc. as well as X yachts. (The Firsts, Sunfasts, and J boats etc from France make a much bigger separation between racers and cruisers, weight reduction plays a bigger part.) Other cruising benefits are the Navix electrics with multiple batteries and a 30hp. engine driving a big three blade folding prop.
But I think it comes down to how you like to sail, a Contessa 32 will set out an hour before us and get in much later, even more if in motoring conditions, so it could be argued that the crew get more yachting every day; I am impatient and the sort of guy who looks at the max. speed before switching the log off, so for me the pleasure is in efficient pasagemaking, after 6 or 9 hours I want to anchor or tie up and go ashore
I feel as safe in the Finngulf as I ever felt in the Sigma 33 but if I was out in an Atlantic storm I would probably prefer to be in the 38 but I suspect that this trust is because I had sailed it for 12 years.
 
ds797 said:
We all know about the sea-worthiness of boats like Contessa 32, Sadler 34 etc, but the modern boats are without doubt faster in light winds and flat water.

Do we think they are suitable for family sailing though? I'm not talking about an atlantic crossing, just family sailing, cross channel jaunts to France etc in a variety of weathers.

Examples of boats I am referring to: Beneteau First 34.7, X-35, Dehler 34rs, Elan 340 etc etc.

Thanks for your input.
Click to expand...

It's an interesting question you raise but the answer has to be personal. What you regard as a cruising essential, others may well not bother about.

In general terms we make progress year by year - just as 2009 cars are way better than 1970 cars, so the same thing applies to boats at the same relative price brackets. Only a fool believes we knew all there was to know when the Contessa was designed or that we know now all we will know in 20 years time. Things move on.

Family cruising requires comfort as well as performance, and a stripped out cruiser racer might well give you the comfort you want but your wife and family? So with no disrespect to Flaming and JCP, their racing experience of the above boats isnt that relevant. What also matters are things like shower cubicles, water tank size, ride quality, ease of handling etc. And boats like the Firsts arent designed to major on these issues.

Going through the same debate and with a lot of help from Flaming, I ended up chosing a Starlight 35. It isnt as fast as a Benny First of the same LOA but it is significantly quicker than a Sigma 33. Being fairly weighty (7 tonnes) and of a fairly conservative hull design it handles rough weather well and is comfortable for a couple crusing. But as I said at the start, it was a personal decision.

Seaworthyness? No reason to think that any of the modern boats are less seaworthy than the old ones - quite the reverse in fact since the new ones are better built in the main. However, performance comes at a price and the price is that you have to manage the boat more than you might an oldie. I cant imagine you could leave an Elan 333 to her own devises in the way you could a Contessa.

Speed differences are minor really. If you want to go fast then forget a modern mono and go multi. The difference between a Farrier tri at 30 ft and a modern mono like an Elan is huge - way more than the difference between the Elan and the Contessa
 
I am definitely with the "modern cruiser/racers can make guide cruisers" brigade.

My boat won regattas in its first year with a previous owner - and it is great to be able to sail fast in light winds and strong winds. I usually sail one or two up with no problems (other than own stupidities!)

However there can be big differences between the sorts of cruiser / racers listed (generally good) vs a full on racer - which may have almost no interior fittings and a ballast ratio that requires 10 on the rail to keep upright. These can be cheap to buy for this reason.

For me the boat designer is key - and looking into their reputation and track record - for fast, seaworthy boats rather than just race wins.
 
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