xcw
Active member
Maybe worth asking Ben Ainslie about that; I understand Ineos capsized yesterday and the Lithium battery caught fire 
Are lithium ion batteries safe as salt water can cause a fire.
- Thread starter Concerto
- Start date
GHA
Well-known member
What sort of batteries were they?Maybe worth asking Ben Ainslie about that; I understand Ineos capsized yesterday and the Lithium battery caught fire
With weight so crucial could well have been Lithium ion. If so no point asking Ben anything, irrelevant.
xcw
Active member
No idea, the article just says Lithium batteries reacted with seawater and caused a fire
Test Boat T6 suffers damage after capsizing in Palma
GHA
Well-known member
Without knowing the type of batteries you can´t say anything really.
dunedin
Well-known member
I think you are missing the point. The original post was about EV car batteries. And we need to be clear about the precise types of Lithium Ion batteries being referred to, as there are lots of different types with different characteristics.
Indeed you wouldn’t want a “Lithium battery” - as Lithium the element does spectacular things when exposed to water.
As you can see here there are lots of different Lithium Ion battery makeups - Lithium-ion battery - Wikipedia
Many of the ones now being used by EVs have great capacity and speed of recharge, but would be a bit too volatile to combine with salt water (it is already a bad day if your Tesla is under the sea).
Generally Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) is considered suitable for yachts if properly installed and managed. Some of the more exotic types are not.
But “are Lithium batteries safe” is a meaningless statement in the a sense of clarity on the precise type of Lithium Ion involved.
Neeves
Well-known member
GHA
Well-known member
Irrelevant to us then. Again.
Concerto
Well-known member
This is an extreme example of lithium ion battery use in sailing, but illustates exactly why I started this thread. I do have to clarify some of the other major dangers on a boat do include gas, petrol, and lead acid batteries. We will never be risk free on a boat but being aware of potential dangers should help keep us safe.
Chiara’s slave
Well-known member
I had a long chat with my insurance broker. He says that currently, few if any policies have specific exclusions, or indeed anything at all to say on the subject. But, the industry is muttering, and he thinks it's likely that clauses will be added to many policies. The confusion over battery types, and what constitutes a safe installation is not being helpful here, He said, if I were to get it done, have it done professionally, then the insurers would have comeback if they felt that was appropriate. I may yet pursue that, but it's probably kicked the can down the road for me.
lustyd
Well-known member
But then that's not different in any way whatsoever to lead acid installations that are DIY. Either you are confident you can show it was done competently or you should have it done professionally. Some of the discussions on these forums just about connecting cables are terrifying, the power source at the end of those wires makes very little difference. While most people should probably use drop in replacement batteries, building a battery from prismatic cells is no different to wiring a few lead acids in series, and there are very good instructions on doing this all over the web.
Then, of course, there's choosing the components. Ordering LifePO4 from aliexpress is a bit of a lottery, but no different to ordering cheap lead batteries from dodgy sources. I would certainly try to find a local supplier offering a warranty, although the price difference can be huge.
Chiara’s slave
Well-known member
The point was, he regarded a pro installation as a necessity, unlike lead acid. Whatever your experience, he knows what I did for a living, most things electrical, I can do a good job on. He still thought that might be a bad idea. If I had a mind to be, I could feel rather insulted. An invoice, and a certificate if possible, was his view of where things are heading. I’m just the messenger here, I’m more than capable of doing the install myself.
gregcope
Well-known member
I watched a professional install and was just a little supprised on the lugs used. Every else look fabulous, bar that. I found that odd to not use decent lugs on thick cables that are likely to be carrying some amps.
So the inclusion of clauses to do it professionally are just legal coverage to have a bit of paper that is essentially meaningless considering I do not need the same for the other end of the connections ...
I would be more than happy for a professional to view mine. I would welcome the discussion. Everthing is over spec'ed and I believe correctly connected. My present install is certainly safer than the professional build it replaced, by the simple fact it has fusses!
So the inclusion of clauses to do it professionally are just legal coverage to have a bit of paper that is essentially meaningless considering I do not need the same for the other end of the connections ...
I would be more than happy for a professional to view mine. I would welcome the discussion. Everthing is over spec'ed and I believe correctly connected. My present install is certainly safer than the professional build it replaced, by the simple fact it has fusses!
dunedin
Well-known member
Whilst the article doesn’t specify which type of Lithium Ion is used, one can imagine an Americas Cup race boat is likely to have gone for a more exotic Ion (instead of LiFePO4) for better power to weight ratio, which would explain their issue.
Regarding insurance cover, this is what our forum hosts posted last year based upon a Marine Industry statement - DIY lithium-ion battery installation could leave you uninsured - Yachting Monthly
Alan S
Well-known member
Quote from above YM article:
"To keep your batteries in good condition, make sure you regularly top them up. Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) or LFP batteries like to be charged to 90% most of the time"
Not true! I would not pay much attention to anything else they say.
Neeves
Well-known member
I should have provided the link - and did not (though someone else may have provided the same link)
Cup Spy Feb 8 : Brits test boat catches fire after double capsize
As I have been cavalier with my use of the words lithium battery, lithium ion etc I'd not treat the article as gospel. It may be correct but I'd like a second independent source before I dismiss this accident as not being relevant (though the weight issue is forceful).. I don't think the fire was the focus of the article, more interest in the 'sailing characteristics' so the lithium fire was simply another, minor, aspect with almost no detail provided.
The mention of 'lithium ion' is at the end of the article and there is a picture of two batteries.
I was slightly surprised that given the propensity for such yachts to capsize that the batteries were not better isolated (from water) - but maybe its too difficult.
Jonathan
Cup Spy Feb 8 : Brits test boat catches fire after double capsize
As I have been cavalier with my use of the words lithium battery, lithium ion etc I'd not treat the article as gospel. It may be correct but I'd like a second independent source before I dismiss this accident as not being relevant (though the weight issue is forceful).. I don't think the fire was the focus of the article, more interest in the 'sailing characteristics' so the lithium fire was simply another, minor, aspect with almost no detail provided.
The mention of 'lithium ion' is at the end of the article and there is a picture of two batteries.
I was slightly surprised that given the propensity for such yachts to capsize that the batteries were not better isolated (from water) - but maybe its too difficult.
Jonathan
lustyd
Well-known member
By the look of them they are hot swap to allow full batteries to be put in and empties removed for charging. To me, it looks like a box full of standard lithium cells like the 32700 and probably chosen for fast charging and light weight, the handles allow easy carrying at the dock and probably easy exchanges with the RIB. They're certainly custom and not what you'd fit for a house bank on a cruising boat. The actual cells probably are in a sealed plastic enclosure, but a short circuit is a short circuit and once they got up to temp they probably popped the lid and caught fire.
Chiara’s slave
Well-known member
It's quite possible that things are the other way round for Ineos Britannia. That an electrical fault caused the capsize rather than the capsize causing the fault. The sheets were stuck in the hard in position, Ben was trying to cut the mainsheet whilst the righting was going on.
Supertramp
Well-known member
And perhaps in that kind of sailing a risk of spontaneous fire adds to the experience.
For me this discussion raises the question of electrical installation quality across many systems, not just lithium batteries. Are all solar installations installed correctly? How many boats have either original (30-40 year old) electrics or additions made by previous owners with no documentation? Once insurance companies start looking closely they may want electrical safety surveys as for houses.
For me this discussion raises the question of electrical installation quality across many systems, not just lithium batteries. Are all solar installations installed correctly? How many boats have either original (30-40 year old) electrics or additions made by previous owners with no documentation? Once insurance companies start looking closely they may want electrical safety surveys as for houses.
lustyd
Well-known member
That might be the solution to the lack of marina space. Regular inspections and/or certification would certainly make boat ownership a different prospect.
I doubt they will though. Despite all the discussion almost no boats have issues so the overall cost is probably negligible for them.
I doubt they will though. Despite all the discussion almost no boats have issues so the overall cost is probably negligible for them.
Zing
Well-known member
There are lots of varieties of lithium batteries and LiFePO4 are the safest, but they make them in two versions essentially, a plastic cased and more recently in an aluminium cased version. The alu type has a slightly different chemistry and mechanical construction and its case is connected to the battery positive, so if it loses Its insulation or if it gets immersed in conductive sea water you can get a dead short. There have been rare instances of these alu cased LiFe cells shorting, going into thermal runaway and then slowly burning. As far as I am aware this not being so with the older plastic cased units.