Are lithium ion batteries safe as salt water can cause a fire.

[Concerto]

Reading about how salt water caused some lithium ion batteries to catch fire on a commercial ship, makes me ask how safe are they for yachts.

U.S. Coast Guard Says to Avoid Loading Electric Vehicles with Saltwater Damage on Ships (gcaptain.com)

 

[Neeves]

Fire Extinguisher Servicing

see post 23

Learn from an ostrich.

Jonathan

 

[lustyd]

makes me ask how safe are they for yachts

Thankfully nobody is suggesting fitting those to yachts so it doesn't matter. LiFEPO4 are safe on yachts, that's all you need to know.

 

[dunedin]

Thankfully nobody is suggesting fitting those to yachts so it doesn't matter. LiFEPO4 are safe on yachts, that's all you need to know.

Yes, as I understand it the precise type of “Lithium batteries” is key. LiFePO4, as you say, is generally consider OK for yacht batteries, but need to check with your insurer (some may require a professional installation or inspection certificate).
The more exotic types now fitted to cars are generally considered less suitable, and may not be able to obtain insurance cover at all.

 

[lustyd]

Have you actually seen a policy that mentions this?

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Have you actually seen a policy that mentions this?

It’s not a question I was asked last time. Nor about many of the things that crop up here. What it is, where it’s kept, and how experienced are you was about it.

 

[lustyd]

My GJW policy doesn't include the word battery or lithium. If they have an opinion they're keeping it pretty quiet which would be at the very least awkward if they refused a claim on that basis.

 

[dunedin]

Have you actually seen a policy that mentions this?

It comes into the general category of “have you made any changes to the vessel”, where it is onus on the owner to advise insurers.
I know of two people who changed to LiFePO4 who did speak to their insurers, and they wanted details plus who was fitting (a professional in both cases) which satisfied them.
There have been cases quoted in the marine press of insurers refusing cover for boats with large custom Lithium battery conversions, but don’t know details personally.

 

[oldharry]

I only have experience of Ebike Lithium batteries, but the rule of thumb seems to be that a properly set up battery with adequate charging, thermal and management systems are to all intents and purposes safe. Its when either manufacturers take short cuts to save money, or amateurs start building their own packs without adequate safety controls that thing get dodgy.

 

[gregcope]

GJW were not concerned about my LifePO4 setup.

Also my LifePO4 setup wiring is much safer than the as-1997 built FLA setup. Much thicker cables. Individual isolators. Nothing connected directly to batteries. Easily removable. Most importantly, fused. Yes I could have changed all of that with an FLA setup. I have had two FLA batteries internally short, get very hot and leak Hydrogen Sulphide.

 

[WindyWindyWindy]

Thankfully nobody is suggesting fitting those to yachts so it doesn't matter. LiFEPO4 are safe on yachts, that's all you need to know.

Why do they need to know so little?

 

[lustyd]

Why do they need to know so little?

You think most boaters understand the danger of lead batteries? No, they don't need to. You think most boaters sit awake worrying about petrol? No, they don't need to. Gas? No. Acetone? No. The list goes on, there are plenty of things on a boat that can kill you. GRP repair kits are WAY more likely to set fire to the boat than Lifepo4 cells whether in a battery or assembled by an amateur.

 

[WindyWindyWindy]

You think most boaters understand the danger of lead batteries? No, they don't need to. You think most boaters sit awake worrying about petrol? No, they don't need to. Gas? No. Acetone? No. The list goes on, there are plenty of things on a boat that can kill you. GRP repair kits are WAY more likely to set fire to the boat than Lifepo4 cells whether in a battery or assembled by an amateur.

It's not the idea that they don't know it's that when they ask, someone just blithely says that they don't need to know.

 

[Neeves]

The implication of this thread is that if you have professionally installed lithium batteries on a yacht they are safe (that in itself is an act of faith). Some of the problems with lithium batteries have been when some other malfunction has caused the fire (maybe adjacent to the batteries).

Are lithium batteries as safe as any other battery when in close proximity to a fire?

Can the risks still be blithely dismissed.

And I do think that most people are well aware of the dangers of petrol, gas, acetone, meths, burning charcoal indoors .......though I might well be wrong

Jonathan

 

[Chiara’s slave]

In this era of loby groups and fake news, it’s very hard to tell how much of a risk lithium batteries are. Is my E Propulsion battery a risk? If not, then surely a fair sized lithium main battery wouldn't be troubling. My battery needs are modest. I’d like to do it for the weight saving alone. I might ring my insurers and ask them. At this stage I've spent no money, I have nothing to lose.

 

[oldharry]

And I do think that most people are well aware of the dangers of petrol, gas, acetone, meths, burning charcoal indoors .......though I might well be wrong

Jonathan

Most people may be aware of these dangers, but the real issue is whether they really know how to handle these materials safely? It's a curious attribute of the human mind to assume it will not happen to me. 'familiarity breeds contempt makes us take risks, as can ignorance. We all know petrol can ignite explosively, but do we actually check for possible ignition sources nearby when we handle it, even at the pumps.

Driving is a good example. For most of us, accidents only ever happen to someone else,so we develop careless driving habits. They may never matter, but every day a number of driver discover they actually do.

On board safety is the same, and though the accident rate is lower, the consequences are often worse than ashore.

 

[lustyd]

Are lithium batteries as safe as any other battery when in close proximity to a fire?

You have an open fire near your battery compartment? And yes, lifepo4 is much safer near a fire than other lithium. Take a look at YouTube.

It's not the idea that they don't know it's that when they ask, someone just blithely says that they don't need to know.

There is a constant stream of these threads, and the same old offenders try try and try again to put people off of lithium through scare stories about water, fire, or insurance. It's simply not an issue any more than lead acid. The question was whether they are safe on yachts and the answer is a very simple yes. Had the OP asked about how to install they might get a slightly more detailed answer.

 

[lustyd]

Here is a lithium polymer fire. You almost certainly have one of these in your phone, as do the guests on your boat. For some reason nobody worries about this

Here is a lithium iron phosphate fire, used in house banks for boats. For some reason, people worry a lot about this

 

[Neeves]

You have an open fire near your battery compartment? And yes, lifepo4 is much safer near a fire than other lithium. Take a look at YouTube.

There is a constant stream of these threads, and the same old offenders try try and try again to put people off of lithium through scare stories about water, fire, or insurance. It's simply not an issue any more than lead acid. The question was whether they are safe on yachts and the answer is a very simple yes. Had the OP asked about how to install they might get a slightly more detailed answer.

Don't be so critical.

Its not common technology, people want to learn - where better than here. They are looking for help. They are expressing their fears and doubts. They want to be re-assured - with data not blithely told when there is evidence available that shows their fears are groundless.

Knowledge is of little value unless it is shared - they want experts like you to share, not be ridiculed and belittled

I note your video - if you know so much - why did it take you so long to find and show it.

Jonathan

 

[Supertramp]

I think the risk needs put in proportion along with the myriad of fire risks boats (and houses) contain.

I have experienced mine and others phones overheating during charging or during normal use which I understand can lead to fires. As you say, most settle for that risk every day ashore or afloat.

More of a question might be what changes (if any) should be made to fire extinguishers and protection systems on board to respect lithium battery devices or systems.