Anyone ever replaced a cable wheel steering system for a hydraulic one?

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steve yates

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It's been suggested that it would be cheaper to buy a hydraulic steering kit set up (about £500) than get new swaged rigging wire and conduits to replace my old whitlock steering system on the longbow.

Any views for and against? any specific experience?

Thx.
 
Interesting, I've never seen a Longbow with a wheel. However, by the time you've got the hoses and sorted out how to fit the pump, I reckon you'd be closer to £1000 than £500. Steering conduit is only about £30 a metre, and wire isn't a fortune, so I'd have thought it would be cheaper to replace the existing. Some people don't like the "dead" feeling of hydraulic steering.
 
I have a hydraulic system on the boat.

Two tiny issues:
  • There is zero feedback from the wheel; and
  • The previous owner put a switch in the system that turns the hydraulics off in a place where you can accidentally turn it off (and are reaching for the emergency tiller in a hurry) don't ask how I know.
 
Have to say I had Vetus Hydraulic steering on the boat when I bought it and I never had any problems in 18 years.

Maintenance was checking the fluid level once a year and the ram operating mechanism was all tight and worked and no sign's of leaks
 
Have to say I had Vetus Hydraulic steering on the boat when I bought it and I never had any problems in 18 years.

Maintenance was checking the fluid level once a year and the ram operating mechanism was all tight and worked and no sign's of leaks
 
[QUOTE the steering is very stiff anyway, so almost anything may be an improvement :)[/QUOTE]

The bit that causes most trouble with Whitlock steering is the wheel spindle. Depending on age the bearings are either brass or some form of plastic ie nylon or similar.

The nylon swells with the constant dampness on a boat and tightens up on the shaft causing stiffness so really it is better to replace them with brass bearings.

On the other hand brass bearings if not carefully lubricated will seize up eventually and need dismantling and cleaned etc.

A simple temporary cure is to drill a hole through the boss and run in easing oil to the bearing to loosen it up followed by fitting grease nipples for proper lubrication.

Once set up and maintained properly Whitlock steering is excellent and with the minimum number of moving parts to go wrong much more reliable than hydraulic.
 
steve yates said:
It's been suggested that it would be cheaper to buy a hydraulic steering kit set up (about £500) than get new swaged rigging wire and conduits to replace my old whitlock steering system on the longbow.

Any views for and against? any specific experience?

Thx.
Click to expand...

Had hydraulic steering on the Prout. No feel, no fun. If I had been able to do so I would have replaced it with cable.

The issue is that most if not all systems are made for Mobos and no are equipped with anti feedback valves. So you cant feel when the steering loads up. And to tack it was a case of eind on the rudders, leave the wheel ( no need to lock it) wander over to the sheets, do the necessary and then wind the wheel back. It might sound like a good thing but it wasnt.

To sum up, that boat was on autoplot from the harbour gates to the next harbour gates. No on wanted to helm because it wasnt enjoyable.

If you are still determined to go ahead, then I have a good hydraulic steeling pump that I had as a spare on the Prout and which wasnt needed. Been intending to use it on another project but never got round to it.
 
SAMYL said:
[QUOTE the steering is very stiff anyway, so almost anything may be an improvement :)
Click to expand...

The bit that causes most trouble with Whitlock steering is the wheel spindle. Depending on age the bearings are either brass or some form of plastic ie nylon or similar.

The nylon swells with the constant dampness on a boat and tightens up on the shaft causing stiffness so really it is better to replace them with brass bearings.

On the other hand brass bearings if not carefully lubricated will seize up eventually and need dismantling and cleaned etc.

A simple temporary cure is to drill a hole through the boss and run in easing oil to the bearing to loosen it up followed by fitting grease nipples for proper lubrication.

Once set up and maintained properly Whitlock steering is excellent and with the minimum number of moving parts to go wrong much more reliable than hydraulic.[/QUOTE]

I do like the idea of simple and less to go wrong. The cables are kinked and frayed, when I bought her, it was a bugger of a job to get them back on the drum, as they had jumped off. Actually, the teflon? bearing at the end of the drum was removed twice during the attempts, it had started off well greased, but I don't think there was much left on it by the time we were finished manhandling things.

The conduit may prove problematic,does it have to be anything special? I presumed it was just to stop crap i the lockers snagging the cables, wouldn't some old hosepipe do the same job? Or does it have some other function?
 
steve yates said:
The conduit may prove problematic,does it have to be anything special? I presumed it was just to stop crap i the lockers snagging the cables, wouldn't some old hosepipe do the same job? Or does it have some other function?
Click to expand...

The conduit is a structural part of the steering system. You must use proper conduit.
 
pvb said:
The conduit is a structural part of the steering system. You must use proper conduit.
Click to expand...

Having seen Steve's boat (and tried to help him with sorting the steering) I am not sure that it is? If it were mine I might be tempted to dump the wheel and install a decent tiller. But then I like steering with a tiller.
 
Quandary said:
Having seen Steve's boat (and tried to help him with sorting the steering) I am not sure that it is?
Click to expand...

Unless it's a very simple cable set-up, the conduit is very important. The conduit needs to resist the force of the steering cable, and not compress or deflect, otherwise tension is lost and it all ends in tears.
 
pvb said:
Unless it's a very simple cable set-up, the conduit is very important. The conduit needs to resist the force of the steering cable, and not compress or deflect, otherwise tension is lost and it all ends in tears.
Click to expand...
Don’t know what OP has but my system have no coduits at all. It’s two wires connected to each side of the quadrant the other two ends are connected to the bicycle chain that is sitting on the steering wheel. Just some pulleys to guide the wire.
 
knuterikt said:
Don’t know what OP has but my system have no coduits at all. It’s two wires connected to each side of the quadrant the other two ends are connected to the bicycle chain that is sitting on the steering wheel. Just some pulleys to guide the wire.
Click to expand...

That's a very simple system. Cable steering often has to be routed through under-bunk areas, etc, which is when conduits are required. They work in a similar way to the outer casing of Morse control cables. If, as he said, the OP already has conduits, they'll be there for a purpose.
 
I replaced the cable steering on my Renown ketch (basically the same boat as a Longbow) with Vetus hydraulic steering and found it good. The reason I did it is because the first winter I had the boat, I had the quadrant off and rudder out for a repair and at one point turned the wheel. The graunching noise told me I had knackered the steering wires (which run in sort of heavy-duty Bowden sheathes) and indeed both cables were kinked and showing broken strands.

During the season, we had found the steering unworkably stiff. To turn the helm at all required a hefty force and it usually turned too far. You could not turn it just a little bit. So going for hydraulic seemed good idea. It was. OK there is little feed-back, but even that was better than the no feed-back before. The Bowden cables had no grease nipples (later Westerly steering systems did incorporate nipples) so the only way of lubricating it was to slabber grease on the exposed bits of cable and turn the wheel to feed it into the sheathes. Which is what I was trying to do when I screwed the cables.

The hydraulic system was easy to work out how to fit. The pipes could run together (unlike the cables which were on opposite sides of the boat.) However the existing bore in the wheel was parallel and the wheel had to be taken to a machine shop to get a taper cut to fit the Vetus pump spindle, and a new keyway cut in the bore.

The only problem in use other than minimal feedback was a recurring drop in level of fluid in the pump and a tendency for fluid to expand out of the breather hole. I read of a round-the-world power boat that had similar problems and they (and I) wondered why Vetus did not advise or supply a simple header tank system. After 16 years of use, the ram started leaking. Just when I put the boat up for sale. A new cylinder was ordered from ASAP, arrived in days and took about 30 minutes to fit.

If I was faced with the same problem again, I would take the same solution, but knowing a bit more than I did before I would source the components more cheaply. The system needs a small pump and cylinder (smallest in the range.) The quadrant needs modifying by cutting off the cable catcher leaving a stub tiller. The outer ram bolt goes through a hole in this stub 6.5 inches from the axis of the rudder post. A mounting has to be devised for the ram pivot. And that is about it. Go for it!
 
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pvb said:
That's a very simple system. Cable steering often has to be routed through under-bunk areas, etc, which is when conduits are required. They work in a similar way to the outer casing of Morse control cables. If, as he said, the OP already has conduits, they'll be there for a purpose.
Click to expand...

Mine has six sheaves (there and back total) and no conduit.

If cable steering breaks, you have a fair chance to jury rig it.
 
It depends what you're after. Hydraulic systems are OK, reliable but still subject to maintenance schedules...you can get a free-feeling, low drag, set-up by spec'ing the system appropriately.

The fact is though that a cable system, and if Whitlock originally designed the system for the OEM, and it's not some retro-fitted, DIY, solution, then it's more than likely nicely specified and should give you good wheel rim-loads, nice feedback from the rudder and all of that. Equally, a cable steering system is about as simple as they come, usually any problem can be visually seen quite quickly and carrying spare wire and some bulldog grips you can pretty much fix anything that might happen to it in an emergency.

For me, if you want any level of "feel"...which after all is why most of us sail, then forget a hydraulic system. There's no feedback at all from the rudder, so you can't feel when bite is being lost when over-pressed, you can't feel the helm load up in the gusts....to me it's simply not what sailboat steering should feel like.

There's a reason hydraulic steering is prolific in motor-boats, and relatively little used on sailboats. Even mega-yachts tend to use mechanical systems, with hydraulic "power assist", not full hydraulic systems for their helms.

It shouldn't be too difficult to find the cause of your stiff steering. Best is to disconnect the cables entirely, such that every element of the system is independent. Work from the rudder (i.e. could be the bearings), backwards through the turning sheaves, to the idlers under the pedestal and finally up to the steerer shaft itself. You'll find one or more areas that need attention due to wear, lack of maintenance/lubrication etc....if you have conduit (this should be blue ribbed stuff)..then you need to make sure the conduit is terminated properly at each end...and look out for black dust at either end..which would indicate the cable is wearing through the conduit liner. This adds a crazy amount of friction.

Final note, the cable tension should be set "just" tight enough, thus that there is no risk of jumping off the quadrant/idlers and that backlash is eliminated, but any tighter than that and all that's happening is additional friction is being introduced to the system.

Hope that helps, but I would urge you, if possible, to stick with the current system and diagnose the problem.
 
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