geem
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I wouldn't buy the aluminium one again.
Anybody got a Spade A80?
- Thread starter chinita
- Start date
Sorry, I wouldn't buy the aluminium one again.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
We have used the A80 extensively on a 38' cat. In our experience it works as well as the steel version, which we have also used. There are suggestions the steel version can set better in some substrates than the alloy model we have not found this the case. We have used it exclusively sailing from Sydney to Brisbane (500nm) and return, multiple anchorages. We have used it sailing in and round Tasmania. However it is alloy and built to the same size specs as the steel version and as the alloy Spade use is weaker than the steel they use then the shank will be weaker (in the alloy than the steel) which is presumably why Spade recommend the next size larger. But you would be hard pressed to test the strength differential. Your yacht seems quite of a size that the A80 might even be too big. it will work on all seabeds the steel version will work - it will be defeated by heavy weed.
Someone mentioned drilling a hole in the shank - do not, if any anchor was meant to have a hole in the shank it would have one.
People who suggest it might not work as well as the steel version might refer to a much larger model, or much smaller (they might refer to anecdotal experience (which is always suspect) - we have used the A80 and continue to carry one.
Its major advantage is that if you are lifting by hand it will extend you life by maybe 10 years (forget the weight of the chain - unless you normally anchor in 15m deep water).
Its major disadvantage is that it costs, money!
If you have the cash, I'd strongly recommend one.
Jonathan
Someone mentioned drilling a hole in the shank - do not, if any anchor was meant to have a hole in the shank it would have one.
People who suggest it might not work as well as the steel version might refer to a much larger model, or much smaller (they might refer to anecdotal experience (which is always suspect) - we have used the A80 and continue to carry one.
Its major advantage is that if you are lifting by hand it will extend you life by maybe 10 years (forget the weight of the chain - unless you normally anchor in 15m deep water).
Its major disadvantage is that it costs, money!
If you have the cash, I'd strongly recommend one.
Jonathan
chinita
Well-Known Member
Thanks Jonathan........just as I was erring towards steel! 
prv
Well-Known Member
noelex
Well-Known Member
The best evidence in my opinion comes from diving and observing the anchors, but if want some reading material have a look at some of the independent tests.
Quite a few are here:
http://manson-marine.co.nz/SitePages/Sup_indept_test.htm
The 2008 yachting monthly test included both the aluminium A80 and the steel S80. The holding power in hard sand was 1052 and 1705 kg respectively.
They also made this comment about the aluminium spade (referring to their earlier anchor test) which fits in with my own observations.
" During our 2003 tests, we found that it had trouble setting in harder types of bottom"
It is a pity the aluminium Spade should be a great anchor, like the seel version, but there is a big and readily apparent difference in the performance especially in harder substrates.
Quite a few are here:
http://manson-marine.co.nz/SitePages/Sup_indept_test.htm
The 2008 yachting monthly test included both the aluminium A80 and the steel S80. The holding power in hard sand was 1052 and 1705 kg respectively.
They also made this comment about the aluminium spade (referring to their earlier anchor test) which fits in with my own observations.
" During our 2003 tests, we found that it had trouble setting in harder types of bottom"
It is a pity the aluminium Spade should be a great anchor, like the seel version, but there is a big and readily apparent difference in the performance especially in harder substrates.
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Neeves
Well-Known Member
We tested an A80, a steel one of the same size against equivalent sized, weight, Manson Ray and Lewmar Claw (we had no access to a real Bruce). We also tested 15kg Manson Supreme, 15kg Anchor Right Excel and a genuine CQR. This was a beach test, but under water, 3 pulls each anchor.
We could not get the Ray and Claw to set, at all (nor the 10kg CQR) They simple skidded across the seabed. There was no difference in holding capacity of the steel and alloy Spade which were similar to the Supreme and Excel. We tested the Spades to a 2t load, this was the limit of the equipment (and my nerves).
When we use the same sized Alloy and Steel Spade both 80's we cannot tell the difference. We have used the steel 80 and the alloy 80 in the same seabeds, one seabed is hard in which it is regularly reported it is difficult to set a CQR, a Spade (either) or Excel or Fortress (FX 23) set easily and hold well. We have actually used both, steel and alloy on a regular basis. We carry the alloy all the time, the steel sits at home.
There is much anecdotal experience on use of anchors. Few people are able to actually compare one anchor with another, let alone an alloy and steel version. The YM article is actually the Voile and Voilleurs (VetV) article in which the results I recall represent one pull, from a converted lifeboat. Interestingly VetV have published a number of such tests, I recall one had the CQR near the top of its list and the next one the CQR near the bottom.
The alloy Spade enjoyed a few tweaks since 2003, one of which was to put a bit of extra weight in the toe.
The A80 is a good product.
Jonathan
We could not get the Ray and Claw to set, at all (nor the 10kg CQR) They simple skidded across the seabed. There was no difference in holding capacity of the steel and alloy Spade which were similar to the Supreme and Excel. We tested the Spades to a 2t load, this was the limit of the equipment (and my nerves).
When we use the same sized Alloy and Steel Spade both 80's we cannot tell the difference. We have used the steel 80 and the alloy 80 in the same seabeds, one seabed is hard in which it is regularly reported it is difficult to set a CQR, a Spade (either) or Excel or Fortress (FX 23) set easily and hold well. We have actually used both, steel and alloy on a regular basis. We carry the alloy all the time, the steel sits at home.
There is much anecdotal experience on use of anchors. Few people are able to actually compare one anchor with another, let alone an alloy and steel version. The YM article is actually the Voile and Voilleurs (VetV) article in which the results I recall represent one pull, from a converted lifeboat. Interestingly VetV have published a number of such tests, I recall one had the CQR near the top of its list and the next one the CQR near the bottom.
The alloy Spade enjoyed a few tweaks since 2003, one of which was to put a bit of extra weight in the toe.
The A80 is a good product.
Jonathan
Quandary
Well-Known Member
'Double ender' of this parish cruises the horrifying West Coast of Scotland all summer on an alloy Spade and swears by it, both for secure holding and ease of handling, they went past here heading west a few weeks back and the one thing we talked about was this anchor.
Knowing the use his has had I would have no hesitation in recommending it in preference to my Manson. The Manson holds OK but with its hoop is an awkward sod to handle and stow unless you are prepared to leave it on the bow roller.
He would probably have responded to this post but I imagine he is sitting to his anchor out there somewhere internet free.
Knowing the use his has had I would have no hesitation in recommending it in preference to my Manson. The Manson holds OK but with its hoop is an awkward sod to handle and stow unless you are prepared to leave it on the bow roller.
He would probably have responded to this post but I imagine he is sitting to his anchor out there somewhere internet free.
Maine Sail
Well-Known Member
BINGO!!! I actually own both and A80 and an S80. Back when Alain was still alive I began conversing with him over poor setting in hard substrates. He told me I was full of rubbish. I then made a very long and detailed video of me setting the A80 in a hard bottom. Six tries, no set all on video and done with perfect execution. I sent the video to Alain...
A few weeks later I had an S80 on my door step at no charge. Went back the the same exact spot and the S80 set within inches 15 times in a row. Put the A80 back on, no set..... Alain was a goo guy but his "tip weight proportion" theory did not apply well to light weigh anchors like the A80 under water. . I wish it had because I really like the light weight of the A80.. Once set you can not tell the two apart, as would be expected, but my the S80 sets consistently better in harder substrates than my A80. The S80 has just enough weight to make its hard substrate setting better than the A80.
The S80 is a great anchor I would not buy the A80 again... The S80 is EVERYTHING Alain said it was......
I own many anchors and the S80 is right up there with the best I own...
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Neeves
Well-Known Member
Maine Sail,
Good and interesting post - its the first time I've heard of your test and it is certainly better than the anecdotal information normally provided. You must have some pretty hard seabeds where you are! Any idea when your alloy Spade was made (or when was it bought). I was told, around 2008/9 by a Spade dealer that the alloy Spades had had extra weight added in the toe and ours was supplied after that change. I do not recall being told why they made the change(s).
Your hard seabed defeated the A80, but not the S80 - which other anchors will not work in the same seabed?
Jonathan.
Good and interesting post - its the first time I've heard of your test and it is certainly better than the anecdotal information normally provided. You must have some pretty hard seabeds where you are! Any idea when your alloy Spade was made (or when was it bought). I was told, around 2008/9 by a Spade dealer that the alloy Spades had had extra weight added in the toe and ours was supplied after that change. I do not recall being told why they made the change(s).
Your hard seabed defeated the A80, but not the S80 - which other anchors will not work in the same seabed?
Jonathan.
chinita
Well-Known Member
Thanks for that post Maine Sail.
I am now wondering what constitutes a hard bottom and whether I am likely to encounter one in the Med or UK waters.
The likelihood is that 95% of my anchoring - once back in UK - will be in mud!
I am now wondering what constitutes a hard bottom and whether I am likely to encounter one in the Med or UK waters.
The likelihood is that 95% of my anchoring - once back in UK - will be in mud!
Maine Sail
Well-Known Member
My A80 was a very early model, one of the first batch to get to the USA... I would hope they made changes to it but these changes, if they did in fact happen, do support the problems I had. Alain initially claimed it was all about shape angles and % of tip weight & not "actual weight"..... Well, at least until he saw my video and the subsequent one showing the steel vs. aluminum in the same area. I was pretty frustrated he never publicly addressed this, and kept my videos to himself, but I suppose it would have cost him some serious money if he had admitted to these findings.. He gave me a new anchor, that worked as advertised, so I really could not complain much....
I also bought one of his Oceanne/Sword anchors and all I can say is that not all new gen anchors are created equal. It is an abysmal failure.......
Bottom line for me is I know the S80 is an excellent anchor, right up there with the best of the best currently available. I just can't comment on any "changes" to the A80 so all I can really recommend is an S80 if you want a Spade...
I also bought one of his Oceanne/Sword anchors and all I can say is that not all new gen anchors are created equal. It is an abysmal failure.......
Bottom line for me is I know the S80 is an excellent anchor, right up there with the best of the best currently available. I just can't comment on any "changes" to the A80 so all I can really recommend is an S80 if you want a Spade...
double_ender
Well-Known Member
Ally Spade Anchor
Very True
Our A80 spade anchor has been 100% on the West Coast since we got the it in about 2000, anchoring about 100 nights a year. The seabed being mostly soft; our only problem being once when we picked up a large lump of carpet!
Our 25 footer had rope and chain (10m) when we got her in '96, which we have continued very successfully, finding that manual retrieval is no problem with the weight of anchor. After a big blow it takes some breaking out, but with the anchor up and down for a few minuites it comes out !
The A80 being the size for 25'-35', I think,, going for the ally kept the weight down to to the S version of the up to 25' bracket.
Quandary....thanks for your comments!, since we saw you at lock 4 we got frozen in the canal at Cairnbaan for 2 days before getting out and roaming south of Ardnamurchan for a month or so. We are on shore leave just now until rejoining Feshie on the 26th for a couple of months, going further north this time!, Regards
M &M
Very True
Our A80 spade anchor has been 100% on the West Coast since we got the it in about 2000, anchoring about 100 nights a year. The seabed being mostly soft; our only problem being once when we picked up a large lump of carpet!
Our 25 footer had rope and chain (10m) when we got her in '96, which we have continued very successfully, finding that manual retrieval is no problem with the weight of anchor. After a big blow it takes some breaking out, but with the anchor up and down for a few minuites it comes out !
The A80 being the size for 25'-35', I think,, going for the ally kept the weight down to to the S version of the up to 25' bracket.
Quandary....thanks for your comments!, since we saw you at lock 4 we got frozen in the canal at Cairnbaan for 2 days before getting out and roaming south of Ardnamurchan for a month or so. We are on shore leave just now until rejoining Feshie on the 26th for a couple of months, going further north this time!, Regards
M &M
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noelex
Well-Known Member
In mud you will be fine with the aluminium version. As this will be 95% of your anchoring experience the lighter weight and greater corrosion resistance of the aluminium version are attractive features.
However, you are very likely to encounter some hard sand conditions in the Med.
It is difficult to tell, the age of an aluminium Spade, but I must have seen many that have been newer than 2008. I have very rarely seen one set, or perform as well as the steel version, or other new generation anchors.
I may be cynical, but often when an anchor performs poorly in tests, or develops a poor reputation, the manufacturer will often develop a mark 2 version. Spade strike me as an honest company and I am sure they are trying to address the problem with the aluminium Spade, but from my observations I seriously doubt they have fixed the poor performance in hard substrates.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
The changes to the alloy Spades was to the weight in the toe and we had ours after Allain sold the business (and that must have been about 2008). In fact I think the changes, though might have been initiated when he was still at the helm, were introduced after he sold out. I'd go along with Maine Sail, the steel version is up there with the best of the best (and we have had no issues with the ally one).
That is the first comment I have seen on the Oceanne/Sword - no wonder one never sees them.
Anchor Right have a new alloy version of their Excel. I tried a prototype which was very good, it has a very sharp toe, but the whole thing needed a bit of beefing up. The prototype set and held as well as the steel version. They have done the beefing and made the shank removable but I have neither tried one nor even seen one. At 8kg (same physical size as the 15kg steel version) you would be able to have it sent by post - it might merit a look, not sure that its on the website. To me the steel Excel and steel Spade are up there together. You might need to send an email to them to check it all out.
If you are considering alloy the other option is a Fortress, which are also very good (though they can be a problem in fitting to a bow roller designed round a Delta).
But all anchors are a compromise - it will be interesting to learn which option you take, alloy has some very endearing characteristics.
Another way to save weight, if that is the issue is G7 chain. Maggi (Italy - not the flavouring company!) could save you more weight (in your anchor locker) if you went one chain size smaller, say from 10mm to 8mm (I don't recall if you mentioned how much or what size you will carry).
Jonathan
That is the first comment I have seen on the Oceanne/Sword - no wonder one never sees them.
Anchor Right have a new alloy version of their Excel. I tried a prototype which was very good, it has a very sharp toe, but the whole thing needed a bit of beefing up. The prototype set and held as well as the steel version. They have done the beefing and made the shank removable but I have neither tried one nor even seen one. At 8kg (same physical size as the 15kg steel version) you would be able to have it sent by post - it might merit a look, not sure that its on the website. To me the steel Excel and steel Spade are up there together. You might need to send an email to them to check it all out.
If you are considering alloy the other option is a Fortress, which are also very good (though they can be a problem in fitting to a bow roller designed round a Delta).
But all anchors are a compromise - it will be interesting to learn which option you take, alloy has some very endearing characteristics.
Another way to save weight, if that is the issue is G7 chain. Maggi (Italy - not the flavouring company!) could save you more weight (in your anchor locker) if you went one chain size smaller, say from 10mm to 8mm (I don't recall if you mentioned how much or what size you will carry).
Jonathan
chinita
Well-Known Member
Thanks for that Jonathan.
I already have a Fortress FX16 but there are problems over deployment - as I said in my post #7.
I am off to a chandlers tomorrow to have a feel of both steel and aluminium but I still can't make up my mind. If I go for steel I will probably have to fit a windlass. I can handle the chain (8mm) but worry about breaking out a well set 15kg steel spade by hand (although it looks to me that there is a hole at the head for a tripping line? - perhaps you could confirm). Yanking out a 7kg Ally anchor would be less of a problem.
Anyway, I am learning a lot from the comments.
I already have a Fortress FX16 but there are problems over deployment - as I said in my post #7.
I am off to a chandlers tomorrow to have a feel of both steel and aluminium but I still can't make up my mind. If I go for steel I will probably have to fit a windlass. I can handle the chain (8mm) but worry about breaking out a well set 15kg steel spade by hand (although it looks to me that there is a hole at the head for a tripping line? - perhaps you could confirm). Yanking out a 7kg Ally anchor would be less of a problem.
Anyway, I am learning a lot from the comments.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Chinita,
Yanking out an alloy Spade or steel Spade (assuming you are not anchored in Maine Sail's seabed where the ally Spade might not work) is going to be the same - the alloy version of the Spade or Excel is as difficult to break out as the steel version. But this should not be the issue as you really should use the buoyancy of the yacht to break out the anchor not your back or the windlass. The issue then comes to whether you want to lift a 15kg anchor and its chain by hand. The problems of lifting by hand include the mud you might have in your chain (but you would have that whether you had a steel or ally model - the issue is weight). As I say its quite possible, you might have a total weight of 30kg (assume 10m of chain), and it will keep you fit but its not the sort of thing to need to do at 2am in the rain nor be able to expect your wife/partner to contribute (unless you want to put them off or they are really keen). I do find lifting the A80 (or ally Excel) with chain relatively easy (but cannot confirm that I've ever lifted with 10m of vertical chain - probably less). Lifting rode is not difficult (wear gloves) the actual issue is that you cannot stow and lift at the same time and its difficult to stop midway (as you then need to lock off, stow and start again). Your crew can stow - but then again its not a practice for 2am in the rain.
If you have a tripping line, sufficiently long you can use it regularly, it then becomes a hazard to you (you might drift over it and get it caught round your own prop or rudder) and other yachts (who might not see it, even in daylight will undoubtedly always run over you tripping line). If you put a buoy on it someone will assume its some sort of courtesy mooring (believe me)! A short buoyed tripping line is good practice, but only such that it protrudes above the seabed and you might then get a line round it easily, by diving, if it gets stuck under a ground chain, rock or whatever.
Best of luck
Jonathan
Yanking out an alloy Spade or steel Spade (assuming you are not anchored in Maine Sail's seabed where the ally Spade might not work) is going to be the same - the alloy version of the Spade or Excel is as difficult to break out as the steel version. But this should not be the issue as you really should use the buoyancy of the yacht to break out the anchor not your back or the windlass. The issue then comes to whether you want to lift a 15kg anchor and its chain by hand. The problems of lifting by hand include the mud you might have in your chain (but you would have that whether you had a steel or ally model - the issue is weight). As I say its quite possible, you might have a total weight of 30kg (assume 10m of chain), and it will keep you fit but its not the sort of thing to need to do at 2am in the rain nor be able to expect your wife/partner to contribute (unless you want to put them off or they are really keen). I do find lifting the A80 (or ally Excel) with chain relatively easy (but cannot confirm that I've ever lifted with 10m of vertical chain - probably less). Lifting rode is not difficult (wear gloves) the actual issue is that you cannot stow and lift at the same time and its difficult to stop midway (as you then need to lock off, stow and start again). Your crew can stow - but then again its not a practice for 2am in the rain.
If you have a tripping line, sufficiently long you can use it regularly, it then becomes a hazard to you (you might drift over it and get it caught round your own prop or rudder) and other yachts (who might not see it, even in daylight will undoubtedly always run over you tripping line). If you put a buoy on it someone will assume its some sort of courtesy mooring (believe me)! A short buoyed tripping line is good practice, but only such that it protrudes above the seabed and you might then get a line round it easily, by diving, if it gets stuck under a ground chain, rock or whatever.
Best of luck
Jonathan
chinita
Well-Known Member
Hi Jonathan
Thanks again.
A lot of of what you said is familiar to me as I spent eight years in the Med on my 14m, 25 ton steel ketch - much of the time at anchor. However, that was a little different. I recall, prior to a storm in Menorca deploying my big Delta and a tandemed Fortress FX23 on a hydraulic windlass with 100m of 10mm chain. I also take the points about tripping line and anchor buoy. Having said that, I have many many recollections of the anchor not setting first, second or even third time and I must have have covered many miles astern dragging an anchor behind me! This is why the 'first time setting' of the Spade is of particular interest.
My questions are really a result of to my lack of experience in 'downsizing' in anchoring terms; i.e how l can square the circle with in terms of compromising between size, weight and convenience (stowing). As I said in one of my posts, I have always been comfortable with weight - and lots of it. The concept of manually lifting is alien to me and I am beginning to think that I should go for the windlass no matter what anchor is chosen.
I want to get it right as I shall be moving all this gear from UK to Portugal in September.
Thanks again.
A lot of of what you said is familiar to me as I spent eight years in the Med on my 14m, 25 ton steel ketch - much of the time at anchor. However, that was a little different. I recall, prior to a storm in Menorca deploying my big Delta and a tandemed Fortress FX23 on a hydraulic windlass with 100m of 10mm chain.
I also take the points about tripping line and anchor buoy. Having said that, I have many many recollections of the anchor not setting first, second or even third time and I must have have covered many miles astern dragging an anchor behind me! This is why the 'first time setting' of the Spade is of particular interest.My questions are really a result of to my lack of experience in 'downsizing' in anchoring terms; i.e how l can square the circle with in terms of compromising between size, weight and convenience (stowing). As I said in one of my posts, I have always been comfortable with weight - and lots of it. The concept of manually lifting is alien to me and I am beginning to think that I should go for the windlass no matter what anchor is chosen.
I want to get it right as I shall be moving all this gear from UK to Portugal in September.
noelex
Well-Known Member
I am lad you mentioned this.
Wrapping the tripping line around your boats prop, rudder, ladder etc is quite a common problem, that is surprisingly not considered by many.
If this does happen the anchor will drag in even a light wind due to the close to 1:1 effective scope and backwards pull.
If I do use a tripping buoy I always put a weak link in the system a couple of meters below the buoy to eliminate this problem. If it does catch on your boat, another boat, or if someone tries to use it as a mooring, the weak link will snap (I usually use a small cable tie).
If you leave a couple of meters of extra length in the tripping line it is still possible to reach the stronger line, prior to the weak link should the anchor get caught. This enables you to use the tripping line to retrieve a stuck anchor (although you may need the dinghy to reach low enough) , but its not really suitable as an everyday line to retrieve the anchor from deck.
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Neeves
Well-Known Member
I imagine wrapping ones tripping line round the prop and simultaneously tripping the anchor must be quite a lot of fun at 2am in the rain!
Jonathan
Jonathan