Any thoughts on this Moody keel ?

[DeepKeel]

HI All


As I mentioned in another thread, I am looking at a neglected Moody 36. It would be something of a project, but most issues seem superficial - or at least not structural. But the keel looks dodgy to me. I don't have any experience with these 'bolted-on' keels. I have put a link to some pictures below, any comments ? What would you do with it - apart from run away?

keel


Thanks

 

[Minerva]

Moody keels were originally coated in epoxy for corrosion resistance. On this particular one, the epoxy coating has failed. This doesn't particularly concern me - If it were mine I'd have it blasted back to good metal and re-do the epoxy or you can go lower budget and attack yourself with a grinder back to bare metal and again re-do the epoxy.

Doesn't look like anything to be worried about.

 

[Daydream believer]

Surveyors comments?????

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

The thing that terrifies about rust is often the amount of the stuff. I just googled it and came up with the fact that the volume of rust is six times greater than the iron it grew out of. It's not nearly as bad as it looks. If you've got a lot to do to the rest of the boat then I'd suggest taking it off, chipping/ off the worst of it, then store it somewhere warm and dry until the last minute, get it blasted, treat and epoxy paint it. You'll have saved yourself several miles of climbing up and down too.

Edit. The reason for keeping it warm and dry is to get as much water out of it as possible, the longer the better.

 

[DeepKeel]

I'm less concerned about the keel itself, more about its join to the hull. Although I guess removing it to reduce the climb while fitting-out would solve that problem too!

 

[Tranona]

Nothing particularly unusual about this, although the corrosion is a bit extreme. Most iron keel castings from that era (and many newer ones!) are poor quality with imperfections particularly on narrow sections like the aft end. As already suggested it needs blasting and epoxy coating. I had a similar keel done last year on the south coast and it cost around £400, but I would budget £600. Don't bother trying to clean it up manually as apart from hours of horrible work you will never get it good enough to hold a decent coating.

The seal to the hull looks OK in the photos but that needs careful checking for signs of leaking, usually rust stains down the keel. Common to find patches of sealant breaking up, but these usually respond to raking out, cleaning priming and repacking. Expect you will find the keel nuts and washers inside are rusty which is normal. Moody used mild steel studs and nuts, and despite the mess that rust creates on the nuts, the studs and threads are normally fine. Definitely worth joining the MOA as you will find plenty of information on how to deal with known issues like this.

 

[DeepKeel]

Surveyors comments?????

I'm crowd sourcing the survey

 

[Tranona]

I'm less concerned about the keel itself, more about its join to the hull. Although I guess removing it to reduce the climb while fitting-out would solve that problem too!

Don't go there. Really not necessary. Digging a hole underneath and dropping the boat in would be easier - but just buy a proper access tower for getting in and out or build scaffolding around the boat with an proper access ladder.

 

[Norman_E]

As said above, it needs the rust blasting off and the keel re-coating. it looks bad, but in fact there is still plenty of good iron behind the rusty surface. With any boat with a bolted on keel the main concerns are the keel bolts and the keel to hull joint. IMHO A look inside to see whether there is any evidence of water penetrating the joint and corroding the keel "bolts" (which should actually be studs with nuts and big washers or a load spreading plate) is more important than a visual inspection of the outside. Having said that its pretty rare for bolted on keels to fail if the boat has been cared for properly and has not been run into underwater objects.
EDIT: I would not remove the keel, If studs need replacing they can be done one by one. I don't know how Moody put the studs in, but hopefully they were coated with red lead or something similar to reduce corrosion and allow them to be withdrawn in need.

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

Don't go there. Really not necessary. Digging a hole underneath and dropping the boat in would be easier - but just buy a proper access tower for getting in and out or build scaffolding around the boat with an proper access ladder.

I assumed that he'd be changing the keel boats, so may as well drop it and do a full job.

 

[cherod]

keel bolts , in situ , and a grinder for the outside .

 

[Tranona]

I assumed that he'd be changing the keel boats, so may as well drop it and do a full job.

Why would the keel bolts (studs actually) need changing? Plenty of experience of these Moody keels and attachments and even if the nuts are rusty, as they are because the boats leak and the nuts are mild steel, when they are removed the threads are fine. Only worth going further is, as I suggested there are signs of serious weeping from the joint in way of the studs so breaking the seal. Very rare and no signs in the photos.

 

[Concerto]

Once the rust has been cleaned away, I prefer to use Fertan rust converter twice and then coat with International Primocon with at least 5 coats before antifouling. Over time the rust is likely to break through in spots over the next few years, but grind back the affected areas and treat like before. 8 years ago my keel was rusty, but not quite as bad, and when I lifted in August after 2 years in the water I had almost no rust marks at all. This system does work very well.

 

[cherod]

you are also going to have to do a fair bit of filling / fairing .

 

[Graham376]

Why would the keel bolts (studs actually) need changing? Plenty of experience of these Moody keels and attachments and even if the nuts are rusty, as they are because the boats leak and the nuts are mild steel, when they are removed the threads are fine. Only worth going further is, as I suggested there are signs of serious weeping from the joint in way of the studs so breaking the seal. Very rare and no signs in the photos.

The keel nuts on most look bad because on most models the chain locker drains saltwater into the bilge but when the studs are pulled, all reports I've read are that they're perfect. I do wonder if that keel is bonded to the anode as, for some strange reason, that seems to cause more rust problems. Our keel has quite a few small voids caused by defects in sand casting, these were filled during production and as others have said the keel was epoxied. Provided there isn't deep rusting on the mounting plate, I wouldn't worry.

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

Why would the keel bolts (studs actually) need changing? Plenty of experience of these Moody keels and attachments and even if the nuts are rusty, as they are because the boats leak and the nuts are mild steel, when they are removed the threads are fine. Only worth going further is, as I suggested there are signs of serious weeping from the joint in way of the studs so breaking the seal. Very rare and no signs in the photos.

I was under the impression that Moody used HT steel studs, and if that's right I'd like to have at least a couple out for a look see. If at the same time I was facing a year's refit on a boat of advancing years then if I could get a friendly yard not to fleece me for the extra lifting time I'd have the keel off to save the climbing and to let me try and get it dried out indoors. You've got to admit that it's in a peculiarly scabby state at the minute, so I'm also thinking that getting the rust properly cleaned in way of the hull joint might be harder than usual with the keel still on.

 

[DeepKeel]

Thanks Everyone, looks like I don't need to panic about that. The rest of the boat is very (very very) scruffy with no electrical system, no batteries, no instruments, no cooker, no fridge, no compass, no windlass. There seems to be a tank of some kind under the bunk in the passageway to the aft cabin. Any suggestions from Moody people what that might be? It seems an odd place for a diesel or water tank.

 

[Minerva]

no electrical system, no batteries, no instruments, no cooker, no fridge, no compass, no windlass.

Meh - you'd be replacing most of these over the course of a 10-15 year ownership anyway. Just frame it in your mind as getting to start the boat ownership with new ancillaries.

 

[Tranona]

Don't want to be over pessimistic, but how much is the current owner paying you to take this on? Just that list of items to buy is £5k - plus £5k if you want full electronics including an autopilot. Rerigging and basic sails another £5k and so on. You have to remember that a boat this size would cost £200k and the bits you need are priced in relation to that, but this boat will never be worth more than about £35k no matter how much care and money you lavish on it. I keep looking at the poor Westerly Seahawk that sat opposite my old boat where the owner had grand plans of taking it apart and "reconditioning". Five years later still there in pieces and nowhere near finished. Costs £2k a year for storage!

Projects like this are only good as a substitute for a garden shed - no good if you want to go sailing in a nice boat.

BTW those keels were amongst the worst of the time. First time of casting small section fin keels in iron. Cast on their sides hence all the voids on one side - although I suspect as Graham says it has been wired to an anode and the impurities have reacted to the surrounding iron. Once saw a 39 - larger sister of this dropped on its keel when the strops broke. Keel twisted and the aft end broke off. Fortunately the pattern still existed to cast a new keel (boat was only about 12 years old then)

 

[DeepKeel]

Meh - you'd be replacing most of these over the course of a 10-15 year ownership anyway. Just frame it in your mind as getting to start the boat ownership with new ancillaries.

Projects like this are only good as a substitute for a garden shed - no good if you want to go sailing in a nice boat.

Hehe! There's my dilemma! It does seem to be fundamentally sound and the more I read about it, the more I think the Moody 36 would be a good boat for my purposes. I would be ready to spend up to £15k on it immediately, and accept that I would never get that back. But there could be some big surprises in the rig or the engine and most importantly, I dare not commit myself to every spare minute for the next 12 months to keep the project moving along. So I think I will probably give this one a miss.