Graham376
Well-Known Member
Not HT.
Any thoughts on this Moody keel ?
- Thread starter DeepKeel
- Start date
Not HT.
Graham376
Well-Known Member
Very strange to find a popular boat like that in such condition, I think walk away is the correct decision, unless virtually give-away price.
dankilb
Well-Known Member
I’m not sure Graham… the OP suggested some exceptional circumstances in which the boat was found. I suspect a period of neglect both on and out of the water - given the state of it - but…
^This!
I suspect that is realistic, compared to a lot of ‘would be’ posts on here, as an initial spend.
Christina’s keel was in a pretty sorry state when we found her. Not this bad, and it was a good casting, but once they need complete re-doing, it’s all much the same…
My blasting contractor reckoned £200 for a keel, if he was already on site. I actually thought this was a bit high, but it took him much longer per area than just getting AF off the gelcoat.
Then it’s a few hundred quid of paint and filler (all epoxy of course) and job should be good.
Are we saying it needs dropping and re-sealing/re-studding? If the studs are sound, surely it may just need a few tubes of OB1/CT1 to sort.
Don’t get me wrong, I think I was the first to post on the previous thread that this will be a big and expensive project. But I’m not sure a keel alone is a ‘walk away’ factor.
DeepKeel
Well-Known Member
To be honest, the asking price is almost irrelevant! I think my decision would be the same if it was going for £1,200 rather than the £12,000 that is actually being asked. I suspect the seller would be willing to go down, but £12,000 seems a fair price, and I hope someone else takes it on.
Concerto
Well-Known Member
Personally I think £12,000 for a boat in that condition with so much missing is too much. Closer to £5,000 is where I expect it will probably sell for. I wonder how much the owner has paid for storing this boat for so many years. He would have been better off selling it years ago and whilst with everything in it.
It reminds me of a boat I viewed in 2013 with an asking price of £19,000. It had been on the market for over 4 years, so was grossly over priced and I estimated it should have been about £12,000, but the agent said the owner would not accept anything less that £17,000. Well some months later I bought Concerto, which was a much better boat. 2 years later the other boat was still in the yard and I commented to a member of staff I had viewed her. He said she had been recently sold fro £4,150. The owner never visited and eventually the cockpit drains blocked with leaves and filled with rainwater, finally filling the cabin to above the settee berths and engine. Basically she was now a wreck that a shipright bought to repair to sell on once he had done a basic restoration. So this owner lost a huge amount from his neglect.
Tradewinds
Well-Known Member
I agree with your overall assessment, but sometimes life events overtake us and I think 'neglect' - which, to me, means not caring what happens - is a little harsh. Just my 2p.
DeepKeel
Well-Known Member
Indeed, there is a very sad tale behind this boat.
Blueboatman
Well-Known Member
My 2p worth
I have owned a boat with a cast iron flange keel very very similar to this
Tranona writes with some considerable inside knowledge that you may choose to ponder well…
I would be concerned enough to get proper expert advice at the quality possibilities of a really early actual casting I’m sorry to write . What may look terrible at the top and indeed the bashed off aft lower edge , may well turn out to be WORSE. Fractured, creviced, rotten . Unsound
Then what do you do ?
Sorry to be a downer but it’s not a bit of dodgy fibreglass , it’s the keel?
At the very least , to make an informed decision speak with a surveyor with specific knowledge and indeed owners on the MOA
I have owned a boat with a cast iron flange keel very very similar to this
Tranona writes with some considerable inside knowledge that you may choose to ponder well…
I would be concerned enough to get proper expert advice at the quality possibilities of a really early actual casting I’m sorry to write . What may look terrible at the top and indeed the bashed off aft lower edge , may well turn out to be WORSE. Fractured, creviced, rotten . Unsound
Then what do you do ?
Sorry to be a downer but it’s not a bit of dodgy fibreglass , it’s the keel?
At the very least , to make an informed decision speak with a surveyor with specific knowledge and indeed owners on the MOA
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dankilb
Well-Known Member
A very rarely disagree with the sages of the forum… But on this, I think I do!
The low £10ks seems reasonable to me and I suspect on the open market it will be snapped up.
I speak as someone who bought a wreck (she was more of a ‘polished t*rd’ - but what matter, as others say above, it mostly all needs replacing anyway).
Are the bulkheads intact? Is the deck soft (in more than, say, 20%)? How much rain water in her? Is everything present (spars, stern gear… the expensive and longish-lived stuff)?
If so, I’d say it’s not a bad option for someone.
Maybe not you, DeepKeel, as you’ve indicated you don’t want to spend loads of time on a project immediately.
I’ve put maybe 1000 working hours into Christina on board (and maybe same again on project management at home). It wasn’t easy. But with no kids/mortgage (and my partner fully onboard - excuse the pun) it matters more to me than paid work.
What I didn’t have was £60k for a good equivalent at the time of purchase. If I had - I’d spend it in a heartbeat - because I want to go sailing, not rebuild boats. But I didn’t… and after 2 years, we’re now booked to launch in December! ??
PBO, remember?! ?
The low £10ks seems reasonable to me and I suspect on the open market it will be snapped up.
I speak as someone who bought a wreck (she was more of a ‘polished t*rd’ - but what matter, as others say above, it mostly all needs replacing anyway).
Are the bulkheads intact? Is the deck soft (in more than, say, 20%)? How much rain water in her? Is everything present (spars, stern gear… the expensive and longish-lived stuff)?
If so, I’d say it’s not a bad option for someone.
Maybe not you, DeepKeel, as you’ve indicated you don’t want to spend loads of time on a project immediately.
I’ve put maybe 1000 working hours into Christina on board (and maybe same again on project management at home). It wasn’t easy. But with no kids/mortgage (and my partner fully onboard - excuse the pun) it matters more to me than paid work.
What I didn’t have was £60k for a good equivalent at the time of purchase. If I had - I’d spend it in a heartbeat - because I want to go sailing, not rebuild boats. But I didn’t… and after 2 years, we’re now booked to launch in December! ??
PBO, remember?! ?
Concerto
Well-Known Member
In post #17 DeepKeel quoted the condition.
"The rest of the boat is very (very very) scruffy with no electrical system, no batteries, no instruments, no cooker, no fridge, no compass, no windlass. There seems to be a tank of some kind under the bunk in the passageway to the aft cabin. Any suggestions from Moody people what that might be? It seems an odd place for a diesel or water tank. "
All of this is going to cost at least £15,000 plus the time to fit everything from scratch. Then what else may be discovered that needs time and money. DeepKeel is wise to walkaway at £12,000. Different matter at £5,000 as I suggested as there is more margin for those unseen items. If this were a house, it could only be bought by someone wanting to restore it as it would be impossible to live in or get a regular mortgage.
DeepKeel
Well-Known Member
I agree. This is a sound boat. The deck is solid, I have heaved on every fitting and seen no movement or flexing. The standing rigging looks remarkably good. Running rigging and anchor chain are for the bin. All interior woodwork seems sound, but it's had some hideous white paint daubed on it. All seacocks, skin fittings, pumps, pipes, clips are for the bin, but that's easy to fix. All wiring and plumbing needs stripping out and replacing. All tanks are probably in a bad state, I guess the diesel tank will need to be removed and replaced unless a bladder could go in. But non of this is 'fundamental'. It looks very do-able to me for someone with the cash and the time (or with 5 x the cash and prepared to let the yard do everything).
dankilb
Well-Known Member
I hope DeepKeel can at least advise the seller than someone will pay more, despite Concerto’s assessment. If it’s £5k, I’ll transfer the money sight unseen tomorrow (I have access to cheap yard and transport, assuming in UK).
dankilb
Well-Known Member
^the above is assuming the current market, and the fact many people are changing priorities and looking for projects. I’m not questioning the fundamental economics (it’ll be a £30k+ boat in the end, all day - and without a skilled/creative touch it may always be ‘scruffy’ compared to the good ‘uns).
DeepKeel
Well-Known Member
I'll let you know! I just looked through many other pictures I took the other day. I really think she is worth £12,000 of someone's money, but not mine. Thanks all for your help on this. I will keep looking.
PaulRainbow
Well-Known Member
Please don't tell any of my customers that they can have full electronics, including an autopilot, for £5k.
Very basic electronics with a wheel pilot, perhaps. If this thing needs rewiring, plus all the electrical gear and electronics, that alone will cost close to what the boat will be worth when it's finished.
You are perfectly correct though, "how much is the owner paying to have it taken away".
dankilb
Well-Known Member
It’s an early Moody - it doesn’t need an electronics package beyond some basic instruments and comms. Although definitely agree a full setup would be pushing £10k (if you’re lucky, for 36’).
We’d need to know state of spars, deck hardware, etc.
Agree that too many big ticket items to make it viable could easily be lurking.
But… c’mon Paul! ? Gotta be worth a closer look. We’re the crowdsourced survey, remember?!
These days, I genuinely think there are enough people after ‘project’ boats, that any 36’ with a viable hull/deck would get 5 figures on eBay.
Boat buying is rarely a strictly rational economic act. And cheap, essentially derelict, boats offer a more attainable ‘buy in’ for those on lower budgets.
Might be some consolation to the owners/families, anyway?
We’d need to know state of spars, deck hardware, etc.
Agree that too many big ticket items to make it viable could easily be lurking.
But… c’mon Paul! ? Gotta be worth a closer look. We’re the crowdsourced survey, remember?!
These days, I genuinely think there are enough people after ‘project’ boats, that any 36’ with a viable hull/deck would get 5 figures on eBay.
Boat buying is rarely a strictly rational economic act. And cheap, essentially derelict, boats offer a more attainable ‘buy in’ for those on lower budgets.
Might be some consolation to the owners/families, anyway?
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Just to put things in perspective the £12k asked for this shell of a knackered boat is not too different from what I paid for my Golden Hind this week. Similar age, and was originally about the same price around 1980 as a the Moody, although of course a rather different boat. However my boat was used all last season and could be dropped back in the water in Neyland and sailed back to Poole. Recent engine, new windlass, all the basic nav gear works good sails with recent Furlex and so on. OK basic domestics no fridge, no hot water, but shorepower and a decent cooker, clean smart upholstery and excellent woodwork.
I hope I have followed my own advice expressed here many times that if you are going to buy an older boat, get one that is functionally complete and in commission - or could be with minimal expenditure. Then you are starting from a sound base for progressive improvement - just like Concerto has done with his Fulmar. Of course previous owners may well have already carried out "improvements" which may need undoing, but the trick is to recognise what these are. You just have to look through the examples of Moody 36s I linked to earlier to see how awful some improved boats are and should be avoided. My preference is a boat that is as original as possible but the changes essential after 30 or 40 years such as new engines and rigs have been done properly.
The 2 boats that made my final cut both met these criteria, unlike the other 10 or so that did not! Of course time will tell whether I made a good decision, but on the other hand I have seen so many projects fail (one described earlier as an example) mainly because people who have not done it totally underestimate the time, money and commitment required to make it a success.
I hope I have followed my own advice expressed here many times that if you are going to buy an older boat, get one that is functionally complete and in commission - or could be with minimal expenditure. Then you are starting from a sound base for progressive improvement - just like Concerto has done with his Fulmar. Of course previous owners may well have already carried out "improvements" which may need undoing, but the trick is to recognise what these are. You just have to look through the examples of Moody 36s I linked to earlier to see how awful some improved boats are and should be avoided. My preference is a boat that is as original as possible but the changes essential after 30 or 40 years such as new engines and rigs have been done properly.
The 2 boats that made my final cut both met these criteria, unlike the other 10 or so that did not! Of course time will tell whether I made a good decision, but on the other hand I have seen so many projects fail (one described earlier as an example) mainly because people who have not done it totally underestimate the time, money and commitment required to make it a success.
DeepKeel
Well-Known Member
Please don't tell any of my customers that they can have full electronics, including an autopilot, for £5k.
Very basic electronics with a wheel pilot, perhaps. If this thing needs rewiring, plus all the electrical gear and electronics, that alone will cost close to what the boat will be worth when it's finished.
You are perfectly correct though, "how much is the owner paying to have it taken away".
Although I woke-up this morning relieved to have decided against it, it's worth thinking this through for the next boat. My thinking had been new speed/depth/wind transducers. The only 'built-in' instruments would be speed, depth and wind, and everything plus AIS and GPS, would go into a multiplexer and via wifi onto mobile devices for nav. Of course autopilot is essential and would be a big ticket stand-alone, but a solid, well balanced boat like that, (with steering system apparently in great condition), would not be too demanding on a basic wheel pilot. So I reckoned that could all be done for under 5k. Am I wrong ? It's been a while since I did this from scratch.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
You will find that the 33s and 36s do use the wheelpilot, partly for cost reasons when they were fitted many years ago, and partly because rod steering linkage makes it difficult to fit a below decks pilot. However the displacement of a 36 in particular over the recommended limit for the wheeldrive and will probably struggle in heavier winds. Fine for motoring and lighter conditions. If going long distance a Hydrovane suits the boat well.
If you went mainstream electronics with one of the big 3 then an full integrated system with wind, depth, speed, chart plotter, AIS, radio, below decks autopilot with cabling is around £8-9k just for the bits. You can of course get the basics for much less than that using low cost instruments and tablets or PCs but of course you won't get the seamless operation that using MFDs and a network give you. When you have used such a system you appreciate how well it all works and how difficult it is to replicate using non bespoke kit.
Having said that, much of this is not essential for safe and rewarding sailing, but it is very tempting if you can afford it.
Minerva
Well-Known Member
I take back entirely what I said. Not at all worth it with a £12k price tag. Here's a nice one for £34k Moody 36S Used Boat for Sale 1982 that looks ready to go sailing tomorrow.
The one I linked to would be far better value than one that you're looking at.