any help major damage to engine on just purchased boat

[davidfox]

I have just purchased a new boat Bavaria match35 for £55k through a broker and having had a survey where an overheating issue was noted instructed the owner to sort out the issue pre sale. He agreed taking it in a Volvo dealer who found a water pump failed this was replaced and the sale went through.

Surely as part of your sales agreement, you instructed the owner to sort out the issue pre - sale. This he clearly did not do. The Volvo agent found a failed water pump and diagnosed this as the reason that the overheating problem was occuring?? They were also wrong as the water pump is still working and the engine has seized we presume through overheating.

The point i am trying to make is, can you be certain that the engine failed through overheating causing the engine to seize?
If that is the case then your pre sale condition of getting the problem sorted was not met.
If this was the case then you need to take this up with the previous owner who in turn needs to take this up with the Volvo agent as clearly they have not done their job, i would presume that they would have checked that all was functioning correctly after carrying out the work

Finally with the engine running for 35-45 mins and then seizing up it sounds like no cooling water or very little water was coming out at all, there would have been signs, was the exhaust checked for water prior to casting off? If all was ok when you cast off were temperatures checked after 10-15 mins, i know this doesnt seem very helpful, but the reason the engine failed is the most important thing to find out, if all was ok above then a simple matter like failing to open the engine sea cock can be ruled out. There are a number of us on here who have failed to do that in the past!

 

[prv]

a simple matter like failing to open the engine sea cock can be ruled out. There are a number of us on here who have failed to do that in the past!

Myself included - but the alarm buzzer alerted me and I hopped down and opened it with no harm done (normal operating temp on that raw-water-cooled engine was 55 degrees, so overheat is not all that hot). Seems strange that the alarm didn't go off this time - was it working?

Pete

 

[davidfox]

When you ran the engine was there a good flow of seawater coming out?
If not I would be removing the rest of the cooling pipework. Looking for blockages. i.e. Impellor parts. As you say, having the thermostat removed shows there was some history.
You may well find pieces of broken impellor still there but check the current impellor still has all the blades in tact.

And also check that there are not impellor blade fragments blocking the oil cooler, this can severely restrict water flow and cause overheating problems, i had a volvo agent fail to remove these after the Marina who moved my boat once ran the engine without opening the sea cock, causing the exhaust to burn through. Of course it wasnt there problem!? I had overheating issues for sometime until someone removed a handful of impellor blades from the oil cooler.

 

[Bobobolinsky]

Why would damage to pistons and liners, write off a £5K engine? £500 worth of non-Volvo parts and a chunk of money to a non-Volvo engine builder.

You don't say what the base engine is.

There is an MD2020 recon for sale from 25th of April
2013

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PKcH-rE400

 

[Sandyman]

I have to say I think you have been seen off. The vendor may be humble & apologetic but from reading your comments I cannot believe he was not aware of the situation.

How old is the boat & how long had the vendor owned it ?

 

[WestWittering]

One point was that the previous owner admitted that he did his own servicing to the surveyor ( i also dont believe that he knew there was a problem and I dont believe that he was underhand at all ) and someone (who i dont know) had removed the thermostat that the engine was designed to have , so someone knew there was a problem previous. Also the alarm did not go off, they were only 3 of us on board but none of us heard anything and we were all in the cockpit, the engine just stopped.

The vendor was aware of the overheating and in front of the surveyor said when it does this I wash the sea water filler out, the surveyor nicely pointed out "thats great but that will not solve the problem and you need to get it fixed"

It looks like he DID know there was a problem. Is there anything on the Volvo invoice to say that he checked the heat exchanger for bits of old impeller? Is the previous owner the first & only owner?

Did the second Volvo engineer say HOW the fuel got into the cylinder - is it because severe overheating occurred thus cracking a cylinder. If the second engineer finds bits of impeller blocking the heat exchanger and this was the cause, then you MAY have a case against the first Volvo engineer. I am not a diesel engineer, but the engine in my old Defender was ruined because the water pump failed and it had to be completely rebuilt.

If the thermostat was removed, how did the gauge show that the engine was overheating?

If gauge showed it was overheating on the survey and not on the voyage, then the first engineer must have removed it?

BUT - it is a small world in the marine engineering circle & you probably will find that number 2 wont say anything bad against number 1.

You should find out the answers to these questions & then refer the answers to Volvo UK - IMHO.

Hope it works out for you & get a second opinion regarding the state of the engine. I have just used AD Marine and found Dale excellent.

Di

 

[PhillM]

Timing is important. If you have had the boat for less than 7 days you have a lot of recourse. If its longer then your legal position may not be as strong. Also, there is some protection for the seller because you did run the engine and he has no way of knowing what you did to it.

I did have a recent similar experence with a 2nd hand engine that i got from ebay. Long story and will not go into many details on here.

However, RYA Legal team were very helpful. Lots of good advice and I believe that just getting them involved helped to move things along - although to be fair to the vendor that might not have been the case.

After discussion and a 3rd party inspection, the engine was collected (at their cost) the monies I paid were refunded and even my collection costs were repaid. Could not say fairer than that - hence my comments above about the vendor and not being willing to go into further details.

 

[Jcorstorphine]

Go for the "Jugular" send lawyer's letter to the owner with intent to sue through small claims court, or if you dont have his address, through the broker. You should claim that the yacht had a latent defect which has not been rectified as part of the contract. Forget about being nice etc, this is a business contract and it would seem that the vendor has dumped the boat.

There is the valid point made by others about expecting the owner to pay for a new engine which has some weight however the life of a marine engine is about 20 years so I would be looking for at least 60 to 70 % of repair, replace costs.

What have you got to loose and as others have said, dont delay.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Hi Anthony - sorry to hear of your problem.

The description you give of what your Volvo engineer said does not make sense, but lets assume that the final failure was due to overheating, and that that was the result of water flow problems. The overheating was spotted by your surveyor so I dont see that you have any claim against him. You have not indicated that the broker made any misleading comments and in any case he is acting as the agent of the seller. So the issue is between you and the seller with the first Volvo agent "on the side." so to speak.

Your decision to purchase the boat was conditional on the overheating problem being sorted out and it was not sorted. Maybe not the sellers fault but that doesnt matter - thats between him and his Volvo engineer. As far as you are concerned the seller breached his contract with your and is in my view liable to you for that failure. Probably doesnt mean you can give him the boat back, but I would start by looking to him to cover the costs of the new engine plus installation and marina costs etc but maybe less an allowance for betterment ie you having a new engine not an old one.

But as usual the devil is in the detail. Was your decison to purchase clearly and provably dependant on the seller sorting out the problem? Or can he deny it?

 

[mikefleetwood]

If you're thinking of going down the legal route, there is one factor that would worry me. I think I understand from what you say, that the seller pointed out or acknowledged various engine problems, any one of which could have resulted in the total failure you experienced. As the Volvo engineer was (it appears) only tasked with replacing the pump, he can't really be blamed for not noticing, or attending to, any other problems. So, if your case is that there were some engine faults, when the seller made you aware of them and you still bought the boat, then I'm afraid I doubt if you will succeed. IMHO, you're going to have to swallow it and pay to have the engine repaired or replaced yourself. Sorry.

 

[clyst]

Really sorry to hear of your problem. Had a similar problem over a new sail when purchasing our last boat .

If you go down the legal how can you prove you yourself didn't run the engine with the sea cock off on your
Journey thus causing the demise of your engine . Just a thought .

 

[TQA]

If you're thinking of going down the legal route, there is one factor that would worry me. I think I understand from what you say, that the seller pointed out or acknowledged various engine problems, any one of which could have resulted in the total failure you experienced. As the Volvo engineer was (it appears) only tasked with replacing the pump, he can't really be blamed for not noticing, or attending to, any other problems. So, if your case is that there were some engine faults, when the seller made you aware of them and you still bought the boat, then I'm afraid I doubt if you will succeed. IMHO, you're going to have to swallow it and pay to have the engine repaired or replaced yourself. Sorry.

+ 1 Tough but HTFU

 

[Heckler]

I have just purchased a new boat Bavaria match35 for £55k through a broker and having had a survey where an overheating issue was noted instructed the owner to sort out the issue pre sale. He agreed taking it in a Volvo dealer who found a water pump failed this was replaced and the sale went through.

7days later I collect the boat and deliver from Brighton to Chichester where the engine was run for 35 -40 minutes and it failed never to start again.

Independent Volvo engineer has opened up to find cylinder and piston damage and has written the engine off, replacement bill £5k

What recourse if any do I have , previous owner sorry to hear that, broker what can I do to help? Surveyor detailed over heating , original volvo repairer , we replaced a faulty part which is still working ?....

£5 k out of pocket with a boat that can't move off the pontoon

Please can anyone help

Either sh it or get off the pot! Either threaten and get some dosh back off the previous owner OR fix the donk. Ive honed badly damaged cylinders and dressed up knackered pistons before now!
I pi ss on so called qualified engineers who only know how to suck their teeth and say NEW NEW NEW! Bottom line, how damaged is the cylinder, post a pic. How damaged is the piston, post a pic. You say it was wet! what with? fuel? if so it would indicate the injector injecting without it firing. Not firing could indicate a damaged piston previously and so no compression. Did it seize solid when it stopped or did it still turn over? If it has seized previously due to overheating it may have been due to the knackered pump.
A new piston and some skilled work on the cylinder could possibly solve the problem. As others have said, £500 or so would fix it if it is as I think it is.
Stu

 

[bedouin]

I don't think you know the full story yet - you need to understand what caused the engine to stop when it did - the description of a damaged cylinder, although important, does not necessarily explain why the engine stopped when it did.

Without understanding why the engine stopped when it did you have no hope of getting any compensation.

Anyway I would not resort to threats at this stage. I would suggest writing to the vendor pointing out what you have found and asking him if he can give any explanation - also ask him if he would give you a discount. He may do so, or when he responds he may give away some useful information that you could use later.

At present you have no chance of winning a court case against the vendor. There is a slight chance that you could sue one of the professionals involved (surveyor or the engineer who "fixed" the engine) but you need a lot more evidence.

All in all it is desperately bad luck - best thing you can do is to ask around to find a cheaper way of fixing it

 

[sailorman]

I don't think you know the full story yet - you need to understand what caused the engine to stop when it did - the description of a damaged cylinder, although important, does not necessarily explain why the engine stopped when it did.

Without understanding why the engine stopped when it did you have no hope of getting any compensation.

Anyway I would not resort to threats at this stage. I would suggest writing to the vendor pointing out what you have found and asking him if he can give any explanation - also ask him if he would give you a discount. He may do so, or when he responds he may give away some useful information that you could use later.

At present you have no chance of winning a court case against the vendor. There is a slight chance that you could sue one of the professionals involved (surveyor or the engineer who "fixed" the engine) but you need a lot more evidence.

All in all it is desperately bad luck - best thing you can do is to ask around to find a cheaper way of fixing it

The OP has no "contract" with the engineer who changed the pump. It was the vendor who instigated that work & paid for it

 

[Marsupial]

Really sorry to hear of your problem. Had a similar problem over a new sail when purchasing our last boat .

If you go down the legal how can you prove you yourself didn't run the engine with the sea cock off on your
Journey thus causing the demise of your engine . Just a thought .

it has a sail drive . . . . . sort of blows that idea away.

as usual we have lots of people trying to prejudge the case, the fact is the has engine failed. I've been involved in several case like this, and the new owner doesn't need to know or understand why it failed - just that it did. Wrangle all you like but unless the original description of goods said faulty engine needs rebuild the vendor has no chance. The law has moved and very recently.

Timing is everything, it would be nice to expect a politely written letter to the vendor to produce a remedy but in my humble experience this wont work. ANY delay in starting an action will weaken any legal case the buyer may have (the law says 3 weeks to reply to a letter is reasonable, three weeks is too long a delay to start legal proceedings). So he must start by making a legal case on day 1, its an insurance he hopes he won't have use. Its not personal its business. Having started a case he then attempts mediation without being greedy. For the vendor the cost of defending the action will be larger than the claim. Any other strategy will fail as the seller will know the buyer has no leverage.


But what do I know??????

 

[scottie]

Well you don't know that sail drives have seacocks normally

 

[PhillM]

I

it has a sail drive . . . . . sort of blows that idea away.

as usual we have lots of people trying to prejudge the case, the fact is the has engine failed. I've been involved in several case like this, and the new owner doesn't need to know or understand why it failed - just that it did. Wrangle all you like but unless the original description of goods said faulty engine needs rebuild the vendor has no chance. The law has moved and very recently.

Timing is everything, it would be nice to expect a politely written letter to the vendor to produce a remedy but in my humble experience this wont work. ANY delay in starting an action will weaken any legal case the buyer may have (the law says 3 weeks to reply to a letter is reasonable, three weeks is too long a delay to start legal proceedings). So he must start by making a legal case on day 1, its an insurance he hopes he won't have use. Its not personal its business. Having started a case he then attempts mediation without being greedy. For the vendor the cost of defending the action will be larger than the claim. Any other strategy will fail as the seller will know the buyer has no leverage.

+1

Sir you know your stuff. Any case out of small claims will cost £20k to defend. Vendor will want to settle right after meeting their lawyer.

But what do I know??????

 

[Jcorstorphine]

There is point which should be made here and that is relative to the engine condition at the start of the trip from Brighton to Chichester.

Did the engine start easily? If there was a major problem with one of the cylinders, would it not be noticeable from either difficulty in starting or noise vibration and or smoke?

If it did start ok and there was no signs of problems at the start of the trip it would suggest that the main engine damage occurred during the trip to either cooling failure or some latent defect within one of the cylinders.

If, as has been stated, that the cylinder was wet with fuel then would that not suggest that the damaged cylinder had not been firing at all.

If the cylinder was subjected to excess fuel could this lead to loss of lubrication and subsequent damage such as rapid wear to the rings? Would this cause the piston to loose compression by way of break up of the rings

One cause of the cylinder wall being washed with fuel is the injector not fully sealing and dribbling fuel however if an injector had jammed open then the noise of the fuel pre-detonation would have been very noticeable (it was on my engine)

Going to be very difficult to prove just exactly what happened but while you should take what ever legal action is thought prudent, you should also investigate getting the engine repaired.

As Skipper Stu has said, most engines can be rebuilt, you just have to ascertain the extent of the scoring on the block and see if there is any pick up on the crankshaft.

So long as you keep clear of the Volvo Main dealers, the cost will not be that high, as an example, you can get a fully rebuilt Ford 1.8D factory rebuild engine for about £800 to £1000

I am pretty sure small Volvo engines of late have been based on the Perkins 100 and 400 series industrial engines. Looking at some of the Volvo 2020 and 2030s, the sump is a bit smaller on the marine version but the block will be the same.

If you can find exactly what engine you have then if you go onto the Perkins web page you can find which Perkins engine your unit is based on.

If it is still in production you can go for a complete engine, and get a local (non Volvo) marine engineer to swap the bits of your engine onto it. BUT chose your engineer carefully. Alternatively the Perkins dealer may be able to offer you a short engine (bottom end only)

Tell us what engine you have and between us we may be able to provide you with a solution.

PS The £5k does seem very cheap for a new Volvo installed and commissioned.

Lastly Please dont delay getting a letter off to the vendor seeking a solution with an intent to go to small claims court.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

. The law has moved and very recently.

I'm intrigued with what you are saying as it is not what I have always understood about private sales.
What has changed in the law?