Any advice on a boat to help with my project!

[snowleopard]

Get real ! It's the middle of the Pacific Ocean.

Ahem!

Looks like a day sail from the BVI to me.

 

[sarabande]

Yes, SL, thanks, I was misled by his talk of deepest ocean trenches.... Apologies.


So, that makes it much easier, and warmer, and nearer civilised UK holiday destinations with sandy beaches, and just a little less challenging.

J's latest post includes this gem

"I understand on the outside, it looks as though nothing has happened. However, if you were to be someone of interest in helping out with the project, I'd happily share with you the proposed plans, the equipment we have, the businesses backing this project and the benefits of the challenge."

It is all beginning to smack of extensive smoke and mirrors, of mystical emotive joining together of adventurous souls, of people who have seen the light of co-operative adventures with someone else paying the bills.

In the absence of any hard information, and documented details of what kit the chap has, when it's all going to be ready, who is already supporting him, how much it is going to cost, and most importantly what on earth it is going to achieve, then I remain totally unconvinced that he has any idea of the complexity and technical demands of this project.

Oh yes, "As a running theme, I rarely divulge in specific details until the run up to launch (this gives me more content and more buzz)." It really does make it sound as if he has done this sort of thing for ages. It's all jargon and self-centred verbage, lacking substance and hard framework. Note the use of "me" in the quotation. I can see nothing which convinces me that this is anything but a glorified sunny holiday in the Caribbean.

Oh, let's not forget the turbulent meterology of that area, and the active seismicity. Just to add those to the (absent) risk analysis.

As the popular phrase goes, I'm Out.

 

[Boo2]

Both myself and a business in Ocean Technologies have teamed up to create a submersible capable of reaching great depths

What is your submersible filled with ?

Boo2

 

[Grumpybear]

Yes, SL, thanks, I was misled by his talk of deepest ocean trenches.... Apologies.


So, that makes it much easier, and warmer, and nearer civilised UK holiday destinations with sandy beaches, and just a little less challenging.

J's latest post includes this gem

"I understand on the outside, it looks as though nothing has happened. However, if you were to be someone of interest in helping out with the project, I'd happily share with you the proposed plans, the equipment we have, the businesses backing this project and the benefits of the challenge."

It is all beginning to smack of extensive smoke and mirrors, of mystical emotive joining together of adventurous souls, of people who have seen the light of co-operative adventures with someone else paying the bills.

In the absence of any hard information, and documented details of what kit the chap has, when it's all going to be ready, who is already supporting him, how much it is going to cost, and most importantly what on earth it is going to achieve, then I remain totally unconvinced that he has any idea of the complexity and technical demands of this project.

Oh yes, "As a running theme, I rarely divulge in specific details until the run up to launch (this gives me more content and more buzz)." It really does make it sound as if he has done this sort of thing for ages. It's all jargon and self-centred verbage, lacking substance and hard framework. Note the use of "me" in the quotation. I can see nothing which convinces me that this is anything but a glorified sunny holiday in the Caribbean.

Oh, let's not forget the turbulent meterology of that area, and the active seismicity. Just to add those to the (absent) risk analysis.

As the popular phrase goes, I'm Out.

I agree with you. It all smacks a little of Beardie and his flimflam, which admittedly has made him a fortune. Speaking of which, he has made a few quid out of his railway which he promised would pay the taxpayer millions; perhaps he could provide a boat etc rather than watch people with much less money be persuaded to give his protege a freebie.

 

[JoshingTalk]

What is your submersible filled with ?

Boo2

Hi Boo2,

Thanks for asking!

The submersible will contain a camera (a GoPro or Yo! camera), a ring of LEDS a pressure sensor connected to an arduino board (which also controls the release of the weight) and an Iridium based GPS for tracking.
Vague details I know but we're still refining them all the time through tests.

 

[John Barry]

Hi Boo2,

Thanks for asking!

The submersible will contain a camera (a GoPro or Yo! camera), a ring of LEDS a pressure sensor connected to an arduino board (which also controls the release of the weight) and an Iridium based GPS for tracking.
Vague details I know but we're still refining them all the time through tests.

Have your tests shown that you get a good GPS signal under water?

I find that the system in my car just blanks out in the when go through the Dartford Tunnel. Same with the mobile phone signal, although of course an Iridium satelite signal may have better penetration...

 

[chrishelen]

I can't believe some of the replies on here. Some attitudes are a shameful portrayal of the very spirit of sailing, adventure, and human progress.

The lad is proposing to send an unmanned budget sub in to a trench. If it fails, it costs a bit of money. What's the big deal? If he succeeds, he could open up the doors to many more amateur, unmanned exploratory projects, and we'd learn more about our oceans.

I don't want to be overly harsh here, but the only word that's really apt for the attitude displayed in the likes of the post I've quoted is... pathetic!

Good luck to you, Josh!

+1

good luck to you josh. hope you get your backing. i suspect your sub is some sort of sphere with a camera and some lights, and chucked over the side on a long wire, yes?

 

[JoshingTalk]

+1

good luck to you josh. hope you get your backing. i suspect your sub is some sort of sphere with a camera and some lights, and chucked over the side on a long wire, yes?

Thanks! Yes- you're pretty much bang on there.
Although not on a long wire as a) the pressure can still snap it or b) you can get some mega strong stuff but for a lot of ££££'s. Hence we are using a GPS to retrieve it, which has been tested in water and is designed for marine equipment.

I think this topic is slowly moving towards a different discussion than I originally started so I'd like to thank everyone who has made there contributions to it.
Those who are skeptical, please keep an eye on the progress.
Those who are supportive, thanks for the motivation.

 

[DJE]

My latest project was given to me by Sir Richard Branson with the challenge to see how far under the Ocean I could explore. I've been working on this since May and have the equipment for the submersible, which is capable of reaching the deepest depths of our Oceans.

"see how far under the Ocean I could explore" makes it sound like a manned submersible, which might explain some of the earlier comments. But your later posts sound more like a football sized robot dropped in to sink freely and then hopefully to be recovered after it floats back to the surface.

You need to give some idea of the size and weight of the object you need to carry, drop, and recover if you hope to get an offer of a suitable boat.

 

[chrishelen]

Thanks! Yes- you're pretty much bang on there.
Although not on a long wire as a) the pressure can still snap it or b) you can get some mega strong stuff but for a lot of ££££'s. Hence we are using a GPS to retrieve it, which has been tested in water and is designed for marine equipment.

I think this topic is slowly moving towards a different discussion than I originally started so I'd like to thank everyone who has made there contributions to it.
Those who are skeptical, please keep an eye on the progress.
Those who are supportive, thanks for the motivation.

good idea, hope it works and you can retrieve it. good luck josh.

 

[prv]

Have your tests shown that you get a good GPS signal under water?

There won't be any GPS or comms signal more than a few feet underwater. I assume the idea is that it goes down autonomously (he doesn't mention any motors, so presumably it just drops straight down with a weight), recording images and whatever other data it's equipped for. Then after a suitable time (or at a set depth if it has a pressure transducer) it jettisons the weight and floats back up again. Once on the surface it squawks its position and he goes and picks it up to retrieve the data.

In many ways it's exactly like the reverse version of a high-altitude balloon (but with the additional challenge of high ambient pressure) and there is a hobbyist community that does that. Two of my work colleagues have been building a balloon payload package they intend to launch next spring, with cameras, altimeter, radio systems, etc. Crucial difference is they're just doing it as a hobby, not soliciting donations or trying to claim any noble purpose.

Pete

 

[V1701]

Two of my work colleagues have been building a balloon payload package they intend to launch next spring, with cameras, altimeter, radio systems, etc. Crucial difference is they're just doing it as a hobby, not soliciting donations or trying to claim any noble purpose.

Pete

They could make a website, call what they're doing social entrepreneurship and can then try to charge people 500 notes for speaking about their project, there's a missed opportunity there - they should contact Josh!

 

[Stuck in France]

I think what you are doing is fantastic, and the people putting you down is the reason Britain is no longer great.

How big and heavy is the sub, as I may of missed it if it has been posted, but do you really need ships, or the navy, as has been suggested?

Keep on it, I'm sure you'll find a way of achieving this.

I find some of the reactions on here astonishing, you deserve nothing but encouragement, the people criticising have no vision and deserve a slap for trying to stifle yours with their discouragement. You should be really proud of what you have already achieved.

 

[ruaridhmaccallum]

I wish Josh well, and admire anyone who ploughs his own furrow, although I understand why the skeptics find his delivery irksome. It may be a generational thing (the reference to Crews reinforces this), but many young people of vision have not sat around worrying what the old guard thought.

What intrigues me is (From his website):
"Success should no longer truthfully be recognised by how much money one has, rather by how much positive change one has brought to the world."

Who said this? The quote might be more inspiring if it were attributed to someone. Makes me think - John D. Rockefeller? Henry Ford? Bill Gates? Steve Jobs? Mark Zuckerberg? There appears to be a worrying trend for those who really have changed our lives to make a decent pile of cash at the same time (Of course I know about their philanthropy).
I do wonder if Josh will still feel the same about this quote at 42 as he does at 22, but I'm a terrible cynic.

Now, about that submersible: I've got a bit of thick-walled steel pipe and an old heavy-glazed porthole kicking about in the shed, I think I'll buy a mini digital camera off ebay and get cracking - see if I can get me a picture of the seabed at the bottom of the Corryvreckan!!

 

[prv]

Now, about that submersible: I've got a bit of thick-walled steel pipe and an old heavy-glazed porthole kicking about in the shed

I'd be interested to hear how Josh is handling the pressure, but if it was me I wouldn't be trying to defend a nice 1bar air bubble against the implacable pressure of the deep. With the possible exception of camera optics, I suspect that most things inside this vehicle could work quite happily immersed in a suitable nonconductive light oil. Computers used to be run that way, for cooling. So you fill the body with oil until there are no airspaces remaining, and let it accept the pressure - without compressing, because it's a liquid. Going with the implacable force, instead of trying to resist it.

Pete

 

[DJE]

.....suitable nonconductive light oil.

Very light if it is going to float back to the surface.

 

[prv]

Very light if it is going to float back to the surface.

Ok, maybe you need some external buoyancy. But didn't Trieste use petrol for buoyancy for exactly this kind of reason?

It's a weird, weird world under hundreds of bars of pressure, and you have to examine all assumptions from first principles.

Pete

 

[ruaridhmaccallum]

Ok, maybe you need some external buoyancy. But didn't Trieste use petrol for buoyancy for exactly this kind of reason?

It's a weird, weird world under hundreds of bars of pressure, and you have to examine all assumptions from first principles.

Pete

I guess it would be easy enough to get a rough idea from first principles: specific gravity of salt water minus specific gravity of oil used would have to be greater than mass of metal structure plus equipment? Or something like that, apologies for the layman's terminology.
What about filling the thing with nitrogen gas to as high an internal pressure as the structure can stand? Due to the properties of a sphere (do we know it's sphere?) it probably wouldn't be enough to equalise the pressure at the sea-bed, but along with a strong enough structure it might be enough to stop it imploding?

R

 

[DJE]

Ok, maybe you need some external buoyancy. But didn't Trieste use petrol for buoyancy for exactly this kind of reason?

It's a weird, weird world under hundreds of bars of pressure, and you have to examine all assumptions from first principles.

Pete

That occured to me after posting my previous. You're right they had a huge tank of petrol at ambient pressure as a float with the bathysphere suspended under it.

The OP is going to have to think hard about the mechanism for releasing his ballast weight at great depth. I'm sure I've read somewhere about hydraulic systems failing to operate because the external pressure exceed that which could be generated by the pumps. I suppose a solenoid would still work if you could find one strong enough.

 

[prv]

I guess it would be easy enough to get a rough idea from first principles: specific gravity of salt water minus specific gravity of oil used would have to be greater than mass of metal structure plus equipment?

Yep. Of course, if you go for an all-ambient design you don't need much in the way of metal structure. Fibreglass would be fine; I would incorporate a deliberately flexible area to let any minor compression take place in a controlled fashion.

What about filling the thing with nitrogen gas to as high an internal pressure as the structure can stand?

Hmm. It's an interesting idea. It goes back to requiring substantial strength in the case again, and means it needs to withstand outward pressure as well as inward, but it would reduce the maximum differential experienced.

The highest "normal" pressure of gas in cylinders as far as I know is 300 bar, so that's as high as you could easily go without special equipment. It also gives a rough idea of how substantial the construction needs to be - like a diving cylinder (bear in mind nobody builds viewing windows into diving cylinders). So let's say you filled the vehicle to that pressure; you'd have 300 bar outwards on the surface, zero differential at 3000 metres down, and 300 bar inwards at 6000 metres. Instead of a steady increase to 600 bar as you'd have with the simple "enclosed bubble" approach.

It's kind of like a reverse version of what astronauts do when getting into spacesuits - they decompress (complete with risk of the bends etc) to something like half a bar, putting the suit pressure halfway between normal and vacuum, to reduce the differential so that the suit isn't inflated so hard that it's too stiff to bend.

The Puerto Rico Trench is about 8000 metres deep, apparently.

Pete