Another Greek UTL question

[billcole]

I want to get a UTL for a First 305 which I bought as an ex Sunsail charter boat in Greece in 2005. The broker selling the boat has a potential buyer, but they will only buy if the boat has a UTL , as they see that as cast iron proof that it is VAT paid.

I have various receipts, two from Sunsail UK for the deposit and the balance, saying that the price was inc VAT, and a VAT invoice that I think was posted to me by Sunsail UK but showing Hellenic Sailing Holidays Athens address and VAT Number, this has full details of the boat name, type, engine type, the Greek registration number at the time etc.
I also have a Bill of Sale, again showing Hellenic Sailing Holidays as the seller, again with their VAT number stating VAT included, and with signatures and stamps. I also have the boatyard letter stating ashore in Greece on Brexit day, and a T2L that I got from HMRC after the Brexit vote but before Brexit took effect

The selling broker contacted a customs agent who says that this documentation is not enough to prove VAT status and that there should be an official, stamped, receipt from Greek customs to show that Hellenic Sailing actually paid my VAT on to them. The selling broker has asked Sunsail in Greece to supply something, but having initially said they would they have now told him to stop bothering them and no longer answer his phone calls.

I tried getting All4Yacht in Preveza to apply for a UTL using the docs that I have, and they didn't object to the paperwork available, but eventually Preveza Customs said they couldn't issue a UTL as the boat is currently ashore near Athens and they can only issue TLs for boats in their area.

I'd be grateful for anyone else's experience of applying for a UTL for a boat where VAT was paid in Greece, and what sort of paperwork is or isn't sufficient.

Thanks

 

[Tranona]

As usual they are making it up as they go along. Unfortunately there is no definition in the EU Directive of what constitutes evidence of VAT payment so it is up to individual states to establish local law. It is quite possible that there is no defined way in Greek law (unlike for example in France) so locals make up their own rules. in your case complicated by the need for evidence to get a local UTL. You may well find Athens local customs take a very different approach.

When my boat was transferred to me from my management company (Kiriacoulis) in 2008 I paid VAT and got an itemised VAT invoice together with a Bill of Sale and no questions asked either in Greece, UK or Spain where the boat ended up. but of course that was all before Brexit and the silly Greek rules.

 

[billcole]

As usual they are making it up as they go along. Unfortunately there is no definition in the EU Directive of what constitutes evidence of VAT payment so it is up to individual states to establish local law. It is quite possible that there is no defined way in Greek law (unlike for example in France) so locals make up their own rules. in your case complicated by the need for evidence to get a local UTL. You may well find Athens local customs take a very different approach.

When my boat was transferred to me from my management company (Kiriacoulis) in 2008 I paid VAT and got an itemised VAT invoice together with a Bill of Sale and no questions asked either in Greece, UK or Spain where the boat ended up. but of course that was all before Brexit and the silly Greek rules.

Thanks, sounds as if you got the pretty much the same documents set as I did. The one I've been told I haven't got but should have is some sort of receipt/payment confirmation from Greek customs which apparently would have a unique number made from small perforations punched into it

 

[Tranona]

I think yours is different from mine as the system changed in 2005. A "proper" VAT invoice should show VAT as a separate item. Prior to 2005 the seller did not actually account for VAT on ex charter boats even though your invoice shows a VAT number. The EU had been in dispute with Greece over this and forced them to come into line. I was in the middle of this as I bought my boat VAT free in 2001 assuming that VAT system would stay the same but was notified by Kiriacoulis in 2005 that I would have to pay VAT on my original purchase price (which was 48% of the total cost when ownership was transferred from the management company to me. That is what happened but no receipt from customs as I think applied in the earlier system.

Not a lot of help to you, but the chances of getting some form of customs receipt for something that happened 20 years ago is probably pretty slim.

 

[billcole]

I bought in August 2005, so must have been right when it was changing.
My Helenic Sailing Holidays invoice showing the boat details does have as its last three lines the net price, the VAT amount and finally the total price, and my final receipt for the balance from Sunsail UK gives the VAT amount that has been included, but my initial Sunsail UK Yacht Sale Agreement, and my Greek Bill of Sale just show the gross amount and state "VAT included"

 

[simonck]

We checked back into Greece in Kos from Turkey about two weeks ago and required a new transit log. I asked for the unlimited version at the Customs and was informed by the the customs service manager who is the only person able to issue it that he only knew of two boats that were successful in getting an unlimited log and if I required it I needed a signed letter from the UK HMRC that VAT had not been reclaimed on my vessel, my original VAT reciept was not enough. I also think that it might have been a problem if the boat had ever left the EU zone but that part maybe was mixed up in translation. Given my time constraints and the Shengen shuffle I opted for a standard transit log.