Another anchor

[thinwater]

I think doing the calculations as you suggest is a valid approach, although there are differences between the setting force produced by an engine in reverse and the force produced by wind. The duration of force is an obvious difference....

Agreed. I only want to get people to think about this. They say "I power set" but often do not know what that means.

I've measured engine and wind forces, and answers can range from 20-35 knots (outboards are less, big 3-blade props on inboards are more).

And then there is the whole business of what the anchor does in windshifts and with yawing (the first is slow, the other rapid), but I don't want to unpack that right now!

 

[Kukri]

I don’t power set. I usually anchor under sail; there are two ways to dig the anchor in - drop it in the chosen spot with way on and use the windlass brake, or drop it with way off and use the brake as you move astern - the former is more reliable but needs some skill and care.

 

[zoidberg]

I find myself wondering what others use to determine if they're dragging or holding. I don't recall that being part of the RYA Syllabus at any level....

I take a set of HBC bearings - essentially ahead and abeam - on conspicuous objects, and plot them on a sheet of paper/diagram with the bearings/distances of other nearby boats - and the Course To Steer to get out of the anchorage if needs be, in reduced visibility.

And I have a small fender and a line stored up forward, should I need to slip ( 'cut and run' ) in a hurry.

As for anchoring without benefit of engine - which we should ALL be able to do - an understanding of the 'Initial Set' then 'Deep Set' processes is necessary, as is a flexible approach to what is possible.
e.g. after beating into Port Ellen one dark night in a rising NW gale, with a dead engine and no chart, we missed seeing any of the HIDB V-mooring buoys so continued towards the sandy beach at NW.

We reached to and fro off the beach a few times, in about 4-5 metres using reefed mainsail only, and doing 3-4 kts to determine if there were any rocky/weedy patches, then let go our 35lb CQR with 30 metres chain into sand. I put the tiller up and bore away in an arc, gybing round - then the load came on the hook progressively, the bows swung round head to wind, and we were positively stopped. Secure.

Anchor bearings were plotted re the last bungalow ahead and the ruined church to the south-west. After half-an-hour, amid gusts, it was time for a very late supper and some hay-time. We were still there in the morning....

 

[Kukri]

“That’s the way to do it!”

 

[thinwater]

Just because I don't anchor under sail should not be taken to mean that I don't know how or that I have not done it many times. I also know how to dock under sail and have done that many times. Both are important skills.

But like celestial navigation, they are obsolete and are not the safest way to do it. I know the arguments, but there are simple more things to go wrong and less control. In the case of anchoring, pretty useless if the wind is light, pretty dangerous if the quarters are tight, and less flexible if the bottom is uncertain.

 

[MM5AHO]

I have mostly used transits for checking for anchor drag. BUt not HBC ones, more often lining up something nearby with something behind that afar. I found that compass bearings are less accurate (+/- 2deg) though not disastrous.
Important to get several bearings preferably at 90 degrees to each other.
Also important that they will be visible at night, so sometimes a light is one of them, streetlight, house, beacon whatever - something likely to stay lit all night.

More recently I've been experimenting with phone apps using GPS. Over a longer period these can be quite good. Instantaneous readings though are dubious.

 

[noelex]

I find myself wondering what others use to determine if they're dragging or holding. I don't recall that being part of the RYA Syllabus at any level.......

Bearings from HBC are quite a valid method. Make sure you also take bearings that will still be identifiably at night.

Transits tend to be a more accurate. Using these you can pick very small changes down to couple of metres or less. This is particularly useful when setting the anchor.

GPS is the other method. This has a number of advantages.

1.If you mark your anchor position you can reliably pick if you dragging even just after a significant wind shift.

2.It works at night or in times of very bad visibility. Thunderstorms in particular can occasionally bring such heavy rain that details on land are obscured.

3.Your position relative to the anchor can be checked from inside, even from bedroom if needed.

Overall the GPS position even with differential correction is little bit less accurate than transits but the accuracy is good enough with an external aerial that even relatively small drags can be picked up. This is important often anchors slowly drag before they let go completely, so small movements sometimes provide some warning that things are not as they should be.

In addition to the above there are some other supplementary clues. The rode will often vibrate or jerk as the anchor grabs and lets go while dragging. A yacht will typically turn beam on to the wind, or at least no longer head to wind and will stay in this attitude.

 

[Kukri]

Just because I don't anchor under sail should not be taken to mean that I don't know how or that I have not done it many times. I also know how to dock under sail and have done that many times. Both are important skills.

But like celestial navigation, they are obsolete and are not the safest way to do it. I know the arguments, but there are simple more things to go wrong and less control. In the case of anchoring, pretty useless if the wind is light, pretty dangerous if the quarters are tight, and less flexible if the bottom is uncertain.

I just like making passages under sail, from start to finish. I find it more satisfying. I do know how to anchor under power, and if there isn’t room, etc. I will, but I dislike starting the engine for a few minutes just to “set” an anchor, or indeed to get under way, so if I can avoid doing so, safely, I do.

 

[GHA]

I will, but I dislike starting the engine for a few minutes just to “set” an anchor, or indeed to get under way, so if I can avoid doing so, safely, I do.

How do you know what the holding's like though?

More than once I've anchored in a known anchorage with good holding where the anchor would hold but not at full revs then pulling up the hook revealed it had caught something, once an ancient life ring , another time just an old towel. Neither of which would have been known about without giving it a good long blast in reverse.

Maybe OK if you're onboard in settled weather for a spot of lunch but much more i really would like to know that's it's digging in and holding.

 

[Neeves]

How do you know what the holding's like though?

More than once I've anchored in a known anchorage with good holding where the anchor would hold but not at full revs then pulling up the hook revealed it had caught something, once an ancient life ring , another time just an old towel. Neither of which would have been known about without giving it a good long blast in reverse.

Maybe OK if you're onboard in settled weather for a spot of lunch but much more i really would like to know that's it's digging in and holding.

I have to agree - after a long passage short handed you really don't want to be wondering if you have caught something in the anchor. Certainty or as certain as you can get, allows you to tidy up, get the dinner and sit down and eat it in comfort (without that nagging doubt).

A further problem - you enter an anchorage at 2am, undersail and vis is 20m - you cannot faff about when you suddenly find a yacht - exactly where you had planned to anchor (with no stern light) - been there done that). I must have been, very, tired - I thought momentarily it was a power pylon - until I saw a dark hull at the bottom.

I know - should have had radar on.

Jonathan

 

[sailaboutvic]

Just because I don't anchor under sail should not be taken to mean that I don't know how or that I have not done it many times. I also know how to dock under sail and have done that many times. Both are important skills.

But like celestial navigation, they are obsolete and are not the safest way to do it. I know the arguments, but there are simple more things to go wrong and less control. In the case of anchoring, pretty useless if the wind is light, pretty dangerous if the quarters are tight, and less flexible if the bottom is uncertain.

We gone through this time and time again , most of the time in the Med if someone tried to sailing in and anchor there be chaos,
Most of us know how to anchor under sail , I hold my hands up and say we don't practise it any more and maybe we should although I have no doubt my partner or me could do it if we needed to .

I guess Minn pick his spot very carefully , not many boats about .
Times we seen it happening is with charter boats who want you should everyone on board and in the anchorages how good they are ,
we seen the results , not good , in the real world we have another problem with people anchoring under engine .

 

[sailaboutvic]

How do you know what the holding's like though?

More than once I've anchored in a known anchorage with good holding where the anchor would hold but not at full revs then pulling up the hook revealed it had caught something, once an ancient life ring , another time just an old towel. Neither of which would have been known about without giving it a good long blast in reverse.

Maybe OK if you're onboard in settled weather for a spot of lunch but much more i really would like to know that's it's digging in and holding.

This it the point so many Miss , dropping a anchor and leaving it to work, sailing in and dropping , even backing sails or setting at very low rev, none of that will tell you if your anchor is set or just hanging onto a tiny bit of weed waitng for a puff of wind to send you walk about .

 

[Kukri]

There are two points here.

First, Vic is right; I choose my spots carefully and usually a bit away from other boats. There is a tendency for people to want to huddle together, usually as close to where the little anchor is drawn on the chart or as close to the beach or the hard as they can get, without actually touching each other as they swing.

The consequences of this are shown in Vic’s photos!

If you have reasonable space, you can dig an anchor in using the boat’s own momentum when anchoring under sail.

The other point that I want to make is that we are all used to listening to the weather forecast. You don’t need to send your anchor off towards the centre of the earth in anticipation of a typhoon if the forecast is for F2-3, and it damages the sea bed. I see people doing this in ordinary anchorages in settled weather and it always seems a bit silly.

 

[Tradewinds]

Delos Mantus anchor again

It just seems to get bigger!!

 

[Neeves]

Re: Delos Mantus anchor again

Portable Moorings come to mind.

I'm sure one even twice as big (is that possible?) would also work. the limits are simply dictated by the largest size a specific anchor maker has in his range (and the size of your wallet). No wonder people laugh when they see them on a bow roller.

An anchor needs work by design - not (large) size, not (huge) mass.

Saying an anchor that size keeps them safe are simply words, who is to say a smaller one (even of the same design) or a, much, smaller one of a better design - would not be equally dependable?

Something I might point out - I'd hardly call that anchor set (but maybe its not been set yet) - its hardly penetrating the seabed at all. Why am I not surprised - and why, this difficulty to set these humongous anchors, is this never mentioned.

Dashew is a major proponent of big anchors - he is building expedition motor yachts with engines of 250hp (for a 60' (?) vessel) - which have the grunt to set the large anchors he recommends (and includes in his inventory).

Hands up anyone with a 60' sailing yacht with a 250hp engine (or a smaller yacht with a commensurately sized engine).

Jonathan

 

[vyv_cox]

Re: Delos Mantus anchor again

Last night (10/8/19) I watched an interesting programme on Channel 5 about the Mulberry Harbour used to supply the troops after the D-day landings. This was a fantastic structure, more than 1 km long, composed of 'bridges' linked between floating pontoons. The pontoons were held by large anchors, not possible to see exactly how large, but the point was made that the whole success of the enterprise depended on them. They looked very familiar indeed, in shape very similar to a Delta but with a vertical hinge, considerably longer than the one on a CQR. In the drawings and the few bits of film showing the pontoons the scope looked very short.

I have followed it up with a search and now know they were called Kite anchors. Interesting analysis of them at https://beckettrankine.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/kite-anchors-final.pdf

 

[Poignard]

I find myself wondering what others use to determine if they're dragging or holding. I don't recall that being part of the RYA Syllabus at any level....

I take a set of HBC bearings - essentially ahead and abeam - on conspicuous objects, and plot them on a sheet of paper/diagram with the bearings/distances of other nearby boats - and the Course To Steer to get out of the anchorage if needs be, in reduced visibility.

And I have a small fender and a line stored up forward, should I need to slip ( 'cut and run' ) in a hurry.

As for anchoring without benefit of engine - which we should ALL be able to do - an understanding of the 'Initial Set' then 'Deep Set' processes is necessary, as is a flexible approach to what is possible.
e.g. after beating into Port Ellen one dark night in a rising NW gale, with a dead engine and no chart, we missed seeing any of the HIDB V-mooring buoys so continued towards the sandy beach at NW.

We reached to and fro off the beach a few times, in about 4-5 metres using reefed mainsail only, and doing 3-4 kts to determine if there were any rocky/weedy patches, then let go our 35lb CQR with 30 metres chain into sand. I put the tiller up and bore away in an arc, gybing round - then the load came on the hook progressively, the bows swung round head to wind, and we were positively stopped. Secure.

Anchor bearings were plotted re the last bungalow ahead and the ruined church to the south-west. After half-an-hour, amid gusts, it was time for a very late supper and some hay-time. We were still there in the morning....

Good post :encouragement:

 

[noelex]

Re: Delos Mantus anchor again

I have followed it up with a search and now know they were called Kite anchors. Interesting analysis of them at https://beckettrankine.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/kite-anchors-final.pdf

Thanks for posting. I have not read a reference to this anchor before. The Kite obviously borrows many ideas from the CQR, but they went to considerable trouble to streamline the shank in particular, which should help penetration. The design looks to be well ahead of its time. It is a pity it was not produced and developed further after the war.

 

[Poignard]

Re: Delos Mantus anchor again

Last night (10/8/19) I watched an interesting programme on Channel 5 about the Mulberry Harbour used to supply the troops after the D-day landings. This was a fantastic structure, more than 1 km long, composed of 'bridges' linked between floating pontoons. The pontoons were held by large anchors, not possible to see exactly how large, but the point was made that the whole success of the enterprise depended on them. They looked very familiar indeed, in shape very similar to a Delta but with a vertical hinge, considerably longer than the one on a CQR. In the drawings and the few bits of film showing the pontoons the scope looked very short.

I have followed it up with a search and now know they were called Kite anchors. Interesting analysis of them at https://beckettrankine.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/kite-anchors-final.pdf

That's very interesting. Perhaps someone with a well-equipped workshop might be tempted to fabricate a yacht-sized one and try it .....

By the way, a small error in the report (page14). A quote from Evans, J., Palmer, E. & Walter, R., 2000. A Harbour Goes to War. Brook House Publishing.
"An experiment with a boom defence vessel, HMS Barham, saw the anchor dropped over the side of the ship. "
HMS Barham was a battleship, sunk in 1941, not a boom defence vessel.

 

[vyv_cox]

Re: Delos Mantus anchor again

Thanks for posting. I have not read a reference to this anchor before. The Kite obviously borrows many ideas from the CQR, but they went to considerable trouble to streamline the shank in particular, which should help penetration. The design looks to be well ahead of its time. It is a pity it was not produced and developed further after the war.

Not sure if you saw this on page 58:
After the war, Beckett became involved in a patent dispute with the inventor of the CQR anchor. Although efforts were made to market the anchor commercially, it does not seem that the design was manufactured beyond its wartime use.