Another **** anchor thread, forgive me?

[BrianH]

In your place I would insist on replacement. The anchor as supplied was faulty.

Thanks for your comment. However, as I have replied to Craig, I cannot be sure that a replacement anchor may not have the same quality of galvanising, where there is no bonding between zinc and steel whatsoever in the area of rusting. So yes, it clearly was faulty. I would feel more confident for a new two-stage re-galvanising after suitable shot-blasting.

I was assured by Grant King, Rocna's production manager, that my anchor was produced in NZ and not China - now perhaps if a new one could be assured as being sourced in China ...... !!!

 

[Chris_Robb]

Thanks for your comment. However, as I have replied to Craig, I cannot be sure that a replacement anchor may not have the same quality of galvanising, where there is no bonding between zinc and steel whatsoever in the area of rusting. So yes, it clearly was faulty. I would feel more confident for a new two-stage re-galvanising after suitable shot-blasting.

I was assured by Grant King, Rocna's production manager, that my anchor was produced in NZ and not China - now perhaps if a new one could be assured as being sourced in China ...... !!!

If you do get a new one out of China, then you might check up whether or not it has a cast fluke (cast to steel welding). Craig will not respond to my query here, so perhaps it is. If so - stick with the NZ made one and regalvanise.

 

[cumbrian]

I had seriously considered the Rocna or Manson but the big tubular roll bar looks awkward for getting the anchor under the pulpit and stowing though I suppose it can be used as a handle

i am currently in the process of mounting a rocna on a roller designed for a CQR. The tubular bar does indeed interfere with the central pulpit stanchion and prevents the centre of gravity of the rocna from being brought fully inboard - which no doubt may add to the difficulty of securing the anchor on a rough night. Not an insurmountable problem, but worth including on the list of things to be considered if you already have a loaded "to do" list...

 

[cumbrian]

BTW - my rocna was bought a week ago in uk and was made in NZ.

 

[craigsmith]

Easier written than done. I bought my 15kg Rocna anchor from the then only European distributor available to me in Switzerland, Rosch Marine of Zaandijk, Netherlands, in November of 2007. They are no longer in your list of distributors. At that time there were no Italian distributors where my yacht was moored.

But why should I do that? I have already written that I have no confidence that a replacement would be any better and to ship back to Holland from Italy would involve me in more shipping costs above and beyond what I have already paid, together with Swiss taxes, import costs and duties.

Barnacle: Rosch are still in our "list" of distributor, please find their details here (www.rocna.nl). If you happen to have any issues dealing with them, which I would not expect (although they are currently closed for summer holidays), contact Rocna directly. Swiss or Italian customs will not charge duties and taxes on a replacement or repaired item. If re-galvanizing in Italy is your preferred option, then this can probably be accommodated. Either way, to repeat both myself and Grant, your anchor's finish is out-of-spec and unacceptable and the matter will be dealt with. The solution is to talk to the right people directly.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Craig - Re China Manufacture - Cast Iron Flukes

you are not answering my query - why not???? Is there something wrong ???

 

[Quandary]

Rocna anchor-The Chris Robb Question????

I have now found a chandler in Scotland who stocks Rocna anchors. I nearly bought one this morning simply because it was available in stock to try for size, BUT, this question can not be answered by the retailer, he says that customers who have bought already seem pleased and he has had no reported failures. He will be interested in the answer too as he stocks a lot of different anchors and brings others in on order, before bringing in Rocna anchors this year would have recommending Spade, but could easily change from the dubious Rocna to the Manson as he himself is a sailor with a reputation to protect.
Note that the local price for a 15kg. Rocna with its now dubious construction and galvanizing is £317, while the 16 kg Manson is £290, so quality does not always cost more
Do you think we will be getting an answer soon or is it too unfavourable to reveal? at least one sale depends on it.
C'mon Craig where are you now?

 

[jhr]

C'mon Craig where are you now?

Be fair; he's probably asleep - it's the middle of the night in New Zealand!

 

[BrianH]

Barnacle: Rosch are still in our "list" of distributor, please find their details here (www.rocna.nl).

I stand corrected - I had missed that page.

Swiss or Italian customs will not charge duties and taxes on a replacement or repaired item.

I am aware of that, I was merely commenting on the high cost I have already paid without adding to it with more shipping costs for repair of a heavy consignment.

If re-galvanizing in Italy is your preferred option, then this can probably be accommodated. Either way, to repeat both myself and Grant, your anchor's finish is out-of-spec and unacceptable and the matter will be dealt with. The solution is to talk to the right people directly.

I thought I had (talked to the right people) and it had been the only option mentioned in all of my correspondence with Grant with no mention of involving the distributor or of replacement. However, that was probably because it seemed the easiest solution at the time until I made it clear it was my preference anyway.

Nevertheless, I will copy Rudy Roos of Rosch Marine with my correspondence and your recommendations.

 

[Quandary]

Letting sleeping dogs lie

Just shout or type Spade, Manson or Delta Craig will wake to tell you what is wrong with them.

 

[Ringmore]

Manson Supreme

We bought a Manson Supreme from Superyacht Doc, and made the standard Delta the back-up kedge, and have been more than happy with its performance.
It cuts through Scottish and Irish kelp without too much engine-astern assistance very well. When you feel the weight of the tip and the sharpness of the blade, you get the impression that this should work and I think it does in practice.
It also stows easily on the roller. The one downside is that the roll bar makes it little cumbersome to handle if you want to bring it through the pulpit leg for stowage in the bow locker, something not helped by the nose-heavy balance, but it gets easier each time you do it.
So far, so good. Very good in fact.

 

[Quandary]

Ringmore - more Info please

Thanks, You have addressed the roll bar handling problem that bothers me but just one more (extended) question
Which size of Manson are you using, can it be manouvered through the pulpit single handed or do you keep it on the roller, and can you keep it away from the stem when raising it.

 

[GrantKing]

Rocna- Cast Iron Flukes

Craig - Re China Manufacture - Cast Iron Flukes

you are not answering my query - why not???? Is there something wrong ???

Chris,

The flukes made in our new facility are cast.

They are a superior fluke to the fabricated original.

The shanks are hi-tensile steel.

They are welded together by certified welders.

All welds are then subject to visual and XRAY inspection.

They are then beadblasted and galvanised.

They are a far superior product than what we received from out New Zealand manufacturer.

Does that answer your questions?

If you want to encourage rumour perhaps you could first ask me directly at grant@rocna.co.nz and I will certainly tell you the TRUTH.

Grant King
Production Manager
Rocna Anchors
New Zealand

 

[Quandary]

Welding to casting

So Chris is right then ?
Anyone with welding expertise who can advise why this is perceived to be undesirable?
Now that the issue has been raised it would be good if it could be explained, surely the attachment between shank and fluke is the most stressed part?
It occurs to me that an anchor warranty, no matter how long, does not cover the boat so you might not have any where to put your replacement anchor.
Another worry is that some production managers regard work carried out by sub- contractors in China (for instance galvanizing) as "outside my control"

 

[craigsmith]

Quandary, the reason I have not addressed Chris's posts thus far is mainly because the 'questions' raised have been dealt with by either myself or Grant on numerous prior occasions (as before, use the forum's search function, or Google). The little rumors and stories put out there amount to trolling, and it is more productive to ignore trolls as engaging them only provides encouragement. I wonder also if there are present any members of Manson's apparent little network of affiliates, earning small kickbacks on referral sales, and if they have anything they should be disclosing?

It is all too easy to engage in "dirty tactics" on the internet. I have always held the attitude that transparency is key, disclosing all commercial affiliations, etc. I'm not afraid to provide critical commentary on the competition if I feel it's justified - however, since I'm not hiding behind nom de plumes or hints fed to affiliates, I have to make sure I'm not going to get myself into trouble! - the competition know where I live.

As to the shank-to-fluke weld, this joint will fail after the shank or fluke, depending on the situation, has failed first! It is well over-spec, and Chris_Robb's insinuation that we would compromise such a critical element of the product is little more than agenda-driven fear-mongering.

The Chinese thing is certainly a challenge for Rocna, as clearly the "China" brand has an issue with reputation, one that worried competitors will exploit. However, it's felt that it's worth fighting that battle. The idea is not to cut costs per se, but rather to open up opportunities for extra quality and detailing that would not be economic in the west. Rocna anchors currently available worldwide are produced in New Zealand, Canada, and China, all to the same quality standard and any 'downgrade' at one location would never be accepted. Regardless of the location of the facility, the Rocna brand will always stand for premium uncompromised quality, maximum durability, and clarity of design.

That's why Barnacle's little problem needs to be dealt with as quickly and conveniently as possible. There was apparently an issue with the galvanizing process; the problem is not critical to the anchor, which remains fit-for-purpose in the short/medium term without any repair, but it's not good enough and will be dealt with. Unfortunately, Rocna is not the first and will not be the last to experience problems with poor galvanizing - it could be worse!

 

[jason -and the arguenauts]

That's why Barnacle's little problem needs to be dealt with as quickly and conveniently as possible. There was apparently an issue with the galvanizing process; the problem is not critical to the anchor, which remains fit-for-purpose in the short/medium term without any repair, but it's not good enough and will be dealt with. Unfortunately, Rocna is not the first and will not be the last to experience problems with poor galvanizing - it could be worse!

Absolutely right - others will have suffered bad galv too, even when operating with good quality control procedures. It's not common but does occasionally happen usually down to a dirty surface / a surface that wont clean in the bath (some marking crayons for example) or the very rare bacth of bad steel.

However I like the idea that bad galv doesnt make the anchor unfit-for-purpose. Presumably Craig would be equally happy to be delivered a car which erupted into rust on use.

 

[jason -and the arguenauts]

. Spade had the best results of the steel anchors at 1237 kg with the comments (For) "By far the best holding in sand" (Against) The tip is less pointed. Perfectible on hard bottoms, high price €520 " There was a special mention for the Kobra 2 1160 kg (For) Excellent conception, hooks rapidly and precisely, price €174 Certainly the best quality / price ratio. THE good surprise. (Against) We're still searching.

Incidentally CQR had the worst results at the highest price. 285 kg €890. This result surprised them because of previous better results and wondered if it had anything to do with the manufacturing of this particular model.

FWIW

John

Incidentally the aluminium anchors produced excellent straight line holding but were liable to be twisted on high lateral traction. The Fortress 10.5kg American anchor held to 2250kg €670 but was cumbersome and difficult to store.

Has there ever been a French anchor test that didnt find that French anchors were the best? If there was one, I've never read it

 

[Quandary]

Welding anchors and the Manson mole.

I have read Craig's response to my concern and while he gives an assurance about his production methods, I for one still do not understand the answers.
At the risk of tedium I will try again
Am I right that a Manson anchor is made in a workshop in NZ by welding high tensile steel, (this is what appears to be happening in the videos on U tube I have just looked at).
Am I correct in understanding from Craig's response that the Rocna anchor is made in at least three countries to different specifications, or are they all now made in China. ( I have no problem with China per se it is where most 'UK?' production also takes place, but why not make a product one way and to one standard wherever it is manufactured?)
Chris has said that only Chinese made Rocna anchors involve welding a high tensile steel shank to cast flukes and this has now been confirmed by Craig, is the NZ production all high tensile steel?
Is welding HT steel to cast metal (iron?) less satisfactory than steel to steel, I always thought it was, but I am not a welder or an engineer? can some one who is, explain?
Craig says that Chris is a Manson mole who is paid by them to discredit his product, if this is true Chris, can you make a good living from it and how does one get a contract?

 

[AncoraLatina]

Welding of cast iron:

As to the shank-to-fluke weld, this joint will fail after the shank or fluke, depending on the situation, has failed first! It is well over-spec, and Chris_Robb's insinuation that we would compromise such a critical element of the product is little more than agenda-driven fear-mongering.

Seen on : http://www.esabna.com/EUWeb/OXY_handbook/589oxy15_1.htm


WELDING OF CAST IRON: Cast iron is an extremely versatile material, used in thousands of industrial products. It is hard, wear-resistant, and relatively inexpensive. Like steel, it is available in many different grades and compositions. Cast iron, like steel, is an iron-carbon alloy. In composition and structure, and in some of its properties, it is quite different from steel.

While many grades of cast iron can be welded successfully, not all cast iron is weldable, and welding of any cast iron presents problems not usually encountered in the welding of steel.

 

[BrianH]

However I like the idea that bad galv doesnt make the anchor unfit-for-purpose. Presumably Craig would be equally happy to be delivered a car which erupted into rust on use.

Let's be fair - and not leave off Craig's qualifier of "in the short/medium term".

He is quite right, he has the photographic evidence that I sent to Rocna showing no deep pitting in the steel compromising the intrinsic strength and I am quite comfortable with plans to cruise in September with this anchor. At the moment the effect of the flaked-off zinc galvanisation is only cosmetic.

But perched right up on the bow roller it sure ain't a good recommendation to be showing if I should ever moor up on a harbour wall or, perish the thought, a marina berth, as I always moor bow-to as I have a long-keeler that can be a pig in reverse.