Anchors, again

Neeves

Well-known member
Joined
20 Nov 2011
Messages
13,489
Location
Sydney, Australia.
Visit site
It has probably never been a better time for a U.K./Eu/Aus manufacturer to look to offshore production to china UNLESS you want to sell that product to the USA.

The problem is timing - Foresight is marvellous - but no-one would have guessed. It takes time to get 'all the ducks in a row'. But its an opportunity to grab.

It will be interesting to see if anyone can use the opportunity to benefit


Its not only anchors, Lithium cells, LFRs, Chineema - come to mind - not ignoring second hand anchors

Jonathan
 
Last edited:

thinwater

Well-known member
Joined
12 Dec 2013
Messages
5,001
Location
Deale, MD, USA
sail-delmarva.blogspot.com
The problem as a factory owner is that Trump is notorious for flip-flopping and outright lying. No one knows what he will do next, and the tariffs will likely change or evaporate. Crazy threats are his negotiation style, have been forever.

There is a bill in Congress that would restrict the president's ability to levy tariffs. He will veto it, of course. https://www.politico.com/live-updates/2025/04/07/congress/whs-veto-threat-00276349

But the point is that as a factory owner, are you going to invest based on a situation that will most likely last no more than 4 years? Maybe. Some. Not much. You will change some contracts and make some marketing changes, but big dollars will just wait. I sure wouldn't move my production in the short run.

Outside the US, Neeves made some interesting points. You should see some surplus. Good on you!

Fortress sells a good anchor, but it's a secondary anchor. It does make me wonder if something will replace Delta as the most common factory anchor. That would be nice.

We have a big boat show in Annapolis in April. I wasn't really planning on going, but now I'm half curious what the buzz will be, since there are a LOT of imports. I'm guessing price increases will be delayed. If I were taking orders on a boat, the tariff part of the pricing would have to be set based on the conditions at the time, which could (likely will be) be very different.

So interesting topic. The effects are hard to predict and variable.
 
Last edited:

Neeves

Well-known member
Joined
20 Nov 2011
Messages
13,489
Location
Sydney, Australia.
Visit site
In fact, it's an old one that has only been in the water a few times for testing. I have two. Not made in China etc.

Too interesting to sell, but way too big for the boat I have now.
As genuine originals I'd hang on to them, as you say - they are interesting historically - even if nothing else. If suddenly the supply of anchors to the US dries up or becomes stupidly expensive - make another decision then.

Some time ago the obvious replacement of the Delta was Epsilon, it appeared to have all the credentials. It looked the part having characteristics of other successful anchors. It was Lloyds tested, at great expense and awarded SHHP (but not a major success on the Panope vids and spreadsheets). Apparently it has disappeared from chandler's shelves in the UK - and no-one has provided a reason. It was not prominent, I saw one only, at the Sydney show (almost 12 months ago now), the next Sydney show is in August but there is one near Brisbane (Sanctuary Cove) in May.

But ground tackle is probably a minor part of the leisure marine supply chain from China - if you are US based, want certainty and need something - book it now (or find a source that is not China).

Jonathan
 

Daydream believer

Well-known member
Joined
6 Oct 2012
Messages
22,451
Location
Southminster, essex
Visit site
I am sure that an American company could start knocking out anchors at a competitive price if there was a demand. That is Trump's vision- made in America. The designs are out there. Just copy them & ignore the copyright. Some probably do not have copyright lodged in USA anyway. Anchors are not rocket science,
 
Last edited:

vyv_cox

Well-known member
Joined
16 May 2001
Messages
26,064
Location
France, sailing Aegean Sea.
coxeng.co.uk
I am sure that an American company could start knocking out anchors at a competitive price if there was a demand. That is Trump's vision- made in America. The designs are out there. Just copy them & ignore the copyright. Some probably do not have copyright lodged in USA anyway. Anchors are not rocket science,
I read in one of the many threads about the current tariff furore that hourly rates in China are about $6.50 (which surprised me as they used to be a lot lower) whereas in USA they are $28. It would almost certainly be cheaper to import anchors, including tariff, than to build in USA.
 

Neeves

Well-known member
Joined
20 Nov 2011
Messages
13,489
Location
Sydney, Australia.
Visit site
I read in one of the many threads about the current tariff furore that hourly rates in China are about $6.50 (which surprised me as they used to be a lot lower) whereas in USA they are $28. It would almost certainly be cheaper to import anchors, including tariff, than to build in USA.
Which is one reason why Delta, CQR, Epsilon, Rocna, Vulcan are made in China. Interestingly the cost of producing a Delta, CQR and Epsilon are more similar than different to the cost of producing Rocna or Vulcan. Another reason for producing in China is that all of these anchors involve casting, galvanising (and welding) - and most of us don't want a foundry nor galvaniser next door to us. By extension its why anchor chain is increasing made in China, its dirty, noisy, and galvanising involves some pretty nasty chemicals. Those 'production' costs are also why Spade is fabricated in Tunisia, Ultra in Turkey and Viking in Ukraine. The exceptions are Knox, Manson, Anchorright and Fortress (which are all cut, welded (except Fortress) galvanised or anodised). I don't know but assume the Lewmar Fortress clone (about which nothing is ever mentioned) is made in China, similarly Plastimo's Kobra - and a whole batch of knock offs, Danforth or Delta types.

The inexorable increase in labour costs is a long term growing issue for China and some products manufactured historically in China now come from Bangladesh, Cambodia etc. Those hourly rates in China have allowed the Chinese to buy apartments with AC, electric cars and buy 4x4s and MoBos - if their international markets melt away they will be unable to service their debts.......The social upheavals that might occur will impact us all and potentially a much greater impact than the inconvenience of a few tariffs. There is already a problem with unemployment of graduates.

The risks are enormous - thank goodness America will be great again?

Jonathan
 

Daydream believer

Well-known member
Joined
6 Oct 2012
Messages
22,451
Location
Southminster, essex
Visit site
I read in one of the many threads about the current tariff furore that hourly rates in China are about $6.50 (which surprised me as they used to be a lot lower) whereas in USA they are $28. It would almost certainly be cheaper to import anchors, including tariff, than to build in USA.
You might be missing a point that there is a minimum wage circa $7.25 in some states. This would make it quite possible to have a working wage under $10 . That makes the figures more workable when one considers the skills needed to make an anchor. Obviously the overheads come in to play & I would expect american ones to be much higher than in China, due to H & S, worker rights etc
In any event I would think that the figure of $28 , whilst true, could be challenged in practice
 

Daydream believer

Well-known member
Joined
6 Oct 2012
Messages
22,451
Location
Southminster, essex
Visit site
involve casting, galvanising (and welding) - and most of us don't want a foundry nor galvaniser next door to us.
Jonathan
They alreay have foundaries & galvanisers. Their manufacturing industry is a lot larger than the Uk's. We have foundries & galvanisers & I bet those in the USA would dwarf ours. It just takes some one in a factory to say " let's knock out a few anchors" . They would not set up a totally new factory for the task, unless they had a stable market with enough volume. If Trumps tariffs stick they may then decide on a different strategy.
Raw materials would probably cost the same. Distribution & retailing costs identical, So the difference is the labour part. Which is only a small % in the overall scheme of things.
 
Last edited:

Minerva

Well-known member
Joined
16 Oct 2019
Messages
1,461
Visit site
You might be missing a point that there is a minimum wage circa $7.25 in some states. This would make it quite possible to have a working wage under $10 . That makes the figures more workable when one considers the skills needed to make an anchor. Obviously the overheads come in to play & I would expect american ones to be much higher than in China, due to H & S, worker rights etc
In any event I would think that the figure of $28 , whilst true, could be challenged in practice
You’re also assuming the minimum wage there to stay… that too could be revoked and wages slashed at the drop of a hat.
 

thinwater

Well-known member
Joined
12 Dec 2013
Messages
5,001
Location
Deale, MD, USA
sail-delmarva.blogspot.com
Tariffs are on the wholesale value and do not (as I understand it) include shipping costs, brokerage costs, and all of the markups. The price impact will not be the percentage that is taxed. Coffee may sell for $25/pound here, but the grower is getting $0.15/pound and I'm sure the tax is on less than $1.00, so the actual bum with a 20% tariff would be about 1% in that case. More in other cases.

I just bought a set of metric taps and dies that were marked as made in Germany. Those that I have tried were on-size and worked well. The tap and die wrenches are Mickey Mouse crap, but that doesn't matter since they are interchangeable with imperial wrenches. However, based on the language in the manual, they were made in China. No German's English is that bad, or rather, not in that way. Not that I need instructions for taps and dies. It was just funny. I think a lot of goods will take back channels.

I'm a free market guy.

PS. Anchors are protected by utility patents (new idea) and design patents (specific design), not copyrights (IP, images, film, recording, and writing). But personally, the wind is likely to change in a few years, so it wouldn't be worth setting up shop and marketing.
 

Daydream believer

Well-known member
Joined
6 Oct 2012
Messages
22,451
Location
Southminster, essex
Visit site
PS. Anchors are protected by utility patents (new idea)
Utility patents only apply in the areas that they are applied for. so if there is not one in the USA then it is not valid in the US. Of course that market being so big one would expect it to have been established. So an EU one might not cover the UK for instance. So manufacture in the UK & sell to the US at 10% tariff.
However, the process does take a while to obtain.
 

Poignard

Well-known member
Joined
23 Jul 2005
Messages
54,005
Location
South London
Visit site
Same as in this country. There is always people with assets, who can carry on as normal.
Did you have a boat in 2008 when the last crash happened? I did & so did many others.
Yes I did have a boat in 2008, and I carried on using and maintaining her as normal.

Had I lost her genuine CQR anchor, I would of course replaced it. With another genuine CQR anchor. ;)

But would I have bought a new boat in 2008? Pehaps not.

I would probably have waited to see how things turned out before dipping into my capital.
 

Daydream believer

Well-known member
Joined
6 Oct 2012
Messages
22,451
Location
Southminster, essex
Visit site
Yes I did have a boat in 2008, and I carried on using and maintaining her as normal.

Had I lost her genuine CQR anchor, I would of course replaced it. With another genuine CQR anchor. ;)

But would I have bought a new boat in 2008? Pehaps not.

I would probably have waited to see how things turned out before dipping into my capital.
But you never intended to buy a new boat anyway You had a twister (who needs another boat)--so that is just conjecture :rolleyes:
But if you had wanted a new boat, it was a good time to buy one & get a good deal. :D
 
Top