Anchors ... again

[jimi]

In my own boat I've got a Delta anchor which sometimes I've had to have a couple of goes at setting, In the Bav 40 I chartered last week the main anchor was a CQR and the bower was a Brittany. Whenever I used the Brittany it set first time even though it was on warp with only 8m of chain , it often took a bit of effort to set the CQR. Now do you reckon its because of the type of anchor or the fact that when deploying the Delta or CQR I'm using the electric windlass whereas with the Brittany I just chucked the whole lot out in one go, if so perhaps I should cease to control the deployment and just let the chain go. What do you think?

 

[oldsaltoz]

G'day Jim,

Your problem may not be how you deploy but rather what the bottom is like. CQR's do not like weed or sea grass, and can take a bit of setting to get through the growth.

Hope this helps

Avagoodweekend Old Salt Oz....../forums/images/icons/cool.gif.

 

[HenryB]

I don't think that you should cease trying to carefully deploy your CQR / Delta. From my own experience, your instant success with the Brittany was due to it being an excellent anchor. I used one for about 5 years and can't remember it not holding. Unfortunately it fouled in 30 metres and I had to eventually cut it free and, being in the Eastern Med, I haven't been able to get a replacement so I'm back to relying on my CQR which takes some care and practice to get it well set.

 

[ccscott49]

Just as an aside, couldn't you get one made, in the eastern meddy, greece or turkey. You can borrow one from somebody over the winter as a pattern.

 

[HenryB]

I started making inquiries about getting one made up, when, just as I was laying my boat up for the winter, the local chandler offered me a secondhand FOB anchor which seems to be very similar to the Brittany. I bought it and will see how well it performs next year. Like the Brittany it is made of heavy steel plate and has very pointed flukes - which I think are the reasons why they set so easily.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Good sailing

 

[ccscott49]

I intend to make two anchors, this year in barcelona, a brittany lookalike and a northill, both in stainless, as it's almost as cheap to make in SS as it is to make in steel, shot blast, acidize and galvanise, They will both be about 60 kilos! I'm not dragging my anchors all over the med again next year, been there done that! Cqr's and halls pattern both useless in weed/grass. Anybody in Barcelona want a 112lb halls pattern anchor?

 

[vyv_cox]

A couple of suggestions:

1. If the pull of the warp on a Delta or CQR is not parallel with the bottom they do not set very well. So it is important to ensure that more than 4:1 scope is let out to start with.

2. Brittany and similar types set very well in mud, even with quite a short scope, although my experience is that the Delta sets well in mud, too. What they are not particularly good at is resetting when the tide or wind direction chages.

 

[hylas]

Hi.. before writing my comments, I would like to point out two things..
- The first one, I'm a French sailor and I would like to apologixe for my poor English..
- the second one.. to be honest, I'm both the author of a french book on anchoring " Tout savoir sur le Mouillage" and the designer and the manufacturer of the SPADE anchor.. I'm not there to advertise for my products.. this is not my Job.. but as a full time sailor I think (perhaps I'm wrong :0) ) that I have some experience to share..

Now considering only this question of anchor penetration.. Ask any mechanical worker.. to penetrate, ANY TOOL need three things.
1 . the right penetrating angle: neither Scrapnel nor razors are conceived for penetration: Ask any Carpenter, the right angle for penetrating is the one of a "chisel"..
2 - the "tool" has to have sharp edges.. This is Obvious..
3 - you have to apply PRESSURE on the tool.. more the pressure, easiest will be the penetration.. This is also a question of common sens..

Now how those three points will apply to anchors?? (not talking about my own product)

Several anchors have a "chisel like" penetrating angle, for example the BRUCE and the Bügel (a German anchor) but neither the CQR nor the Delta..

Both the tip of the Bügel, the Bruce, the Fortress have sharp edges.. But look at the edge of the Delta??

Weight repartition is also very important, for example the CQR has only 18 % of the total anchor's weight on the tip (and 62 % on the shank) and this is why (as demonstrated in the Pf. Knox article in PBO July) this is an unstable anchor.. to much weight on the shank) By opposition the Delta anchor has 28 % of its total weight on the tip.. much better for penetration, but the BRUCE has 38 % , and this the reason of why the Bruce is penetrating so well..

If you will have to anchor in Hard sand like in the Med or in places foul of weed, look carefully for anchors which have both the right penetrating angle, sharp edges and the maximum of weight on the tip.. some anchors have up to 50 %..

Fair winds and safe anchoring to all..

Alain

 

[vyv_cox]

Thanks for your interesting reply. I have an old copy of your book which I found very useful, although the mooring section in my version is inadequate for British conditions.

I have never used a Spade so I cannot comment upon its performance. I have used a Delta and CQR very extensively and I think I can comment upon them.

My first comment applies equally to the article by Professor Knox. The CQR is not designed to stand upright, but to lie on its side. In this position the head will swivel to one side and drive into the sea bed. Professor Knox assumed that when this happened the CQR had failed - in fact the opposite is the case and it had only just begun to work! It is therefore not unstable - it is probably the most stable of anchors.

I take your point about anchoring in hard sand, my only failure with the Delta was in this type of bottom. However, the difference between the Delta and the Bruce is far more complex than weight distribution, it also has to do with the area of the tip in contact with the seabed, i.e. the applied pressure. So the Bruce may have a better distribution but the area is much greater, the overall effect being that it is less reliable in hard bottoms.

The fact remains that many of us have spent many safe nights on CQR and Delta, in very adverse conditions, and have not suffered problems. I still believe very strongly that successful anchoring has far more to do with the technique than the equipment, at least assuming chain warp and adequate anchor warp.

 

[gunnarsilins]

Confused!

The subject on anchors have been up on my recent postings about suitable equipment for longer cruise.
And I have spent hours reading about anchors, rodes and scopes in magazines, books and forums.

So:


One opinion is: 56 m of chain is not enough for the bower, go for 80, or even 100 metres.

Another opinion is: Go for twice the boat length in chain, the rest should be nylon warp spliced on to the chain!

Then there is an opinion: Don´t rely on a chain/warp splice....

Someone says: You must get a Fortress - it´s the only anchor which will hold in mud

Another opinion is that CQR works very well in mud....

Because of the small area CQR holds poorly in mud.....

Someone says, 45 lbs CQR is not heavy enough, go for a bigger Delta.

Holding has nothing to do with weight, it´s a question of fluke area.

To be able to hold an anchor must penetrate deep, and this is a matter of weight!

No its a matter of weight distribution!

No its a matter of sharpness and tip geometry

A common opinion is that Fisherman is the only anchor to use on kelp/weed/rock

Another says, Fisherman is useless on weed.....

You can read that Bruce does penetrate well but holding is poor - or you can read that Bruce holds well but got difficulties to penetrate....

CQR is sitting in the bowroller on 10.000 yachts, and have done that for decades.....but Brittany in the best anchor! ....no sorry I mean Spade, or Bugel, or...

CQR has wrong weight distribution and is unstable, does not set easely

One of the main advantages of the CQR is that it resets well when the direction of pull changes....

Spade has the proper weight distribution and holds on all bottoms

Danforth is the best anchor on sand

A well set Danforth will bend or break

Danforth just skids on the surface of hard sand

CQR falls on it´s side, this is a fault by design

CQR is designed for falling on it´s side for beeing able to penetrate....

You should go for a big scope, 5:1 or more

But sometimes you read that a scope of more than 4:1 is counter-productive....

*exhausted....*

What about a stone tied to a rope?

 

[Viking]

Re: How much?

54 meters of chain+ anchor??? How bigs your boat? the weight must be huge?
54 meters of chain on my boat I wouldnt need an anchor, the boat would be on the bottom.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Re: me too!

however the more you read - the more info you get and the more you can make up your own mind. I agree with Viv - technicque is probably the most important aspect (assuming one of the main stream anchors)

For cruising it is necessary to have a spare - so have an alternative type.

Good luck - wish I was going as well! - might be forced to go cruising if business in the City of London gets any worse!

 

[Chris_Robb]

Re: How much?

Thats nothing - I have 100 meters - what worries me is if its all haning down - I don't think the windlass could pull it up, let alone 50 meters!

 

[gunnarsilins]

Re: How much?

Moody 42 deck saloon ketch, from the 70-ties. 12 tons displacement. A lots of windage.

 

[gunnarsilins]

Re: me too!

Of course, you are right.
I´m just amazed of that anchors are a bit like different keel types - a hot topic with lots of different opinions and no simple answer!

If I shall draw a conclusion from what´s been said I should add some chain and get rid of one of my two 45 lbs CQR´s and go for an alternative, maybe a bit heavier as a main anchor.

The big question is now; what alternative?

Spade, Delta, Bugel or a bigger CQR?

Spade seems to be a tempting choice in the background of recent articles even if it´s hard to find much feedback from experienced users.
Delta seems to have a fair amount of satisfied users and in my opinion better looks!
Bugel looks ugly and lacks feedback from users.
A bigger CQR seems to be the pragmatic choice and probably easiest to find for an attractive price.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Re: me too!

Another post commented that his boat would sink with 50 mtr of chain. My worry is that my Windlass (Lofrans) would not pull up 50 meters hanging straight to the bottom. I have recoverd from 25 meters depth with 75 meters out in calm weather. but I would not want to do it again!

Choice of anchors - well - it seems that many French boats in brittany seem to have the Delta, lots of fortress as well. I was thinking I would buy this year a 55Ib Delta to compliment my 45lb CQR - which I find a nightmare to get in on hard sand.

 

[gunnarsilins]

Is it manual?

I sometimes let all my chain out(with anchor) on really deep water so it can rotate freely and untangle. My 1kW S&L windlass seems to cope with that task easely.
So you regard (along with the French) that a Delta would be more effective on hard sand compared with CQR?

 

[Chris_Robb]

Re: Is it manual?

No - ancient 1 KW - just put in new brushes so might work better.

Delta - just hoping it will be easier - won't know till I use it! So why don't you buy one first and tell me whether it works!!!!!!

 

[vyv_cox]

Delta on hard sand...

not very good. My only failure with this anchor design on past two boats. I cannot claim to know the answer - I just moved to somewhere else. I suspect that it might be a little better than a CQR but doubt if there is much in it. I suspect that a Spade may well be better but no personal experience.

My 35 lb Delta is on 55 metres of chain. I have a Fortress rigged as kedge, about 10 metres of chain and 50 metres of Anchorplait. Spare 100 metres or so of rope warp and a spare 25 lb CQR.

 

[heerenleed]

Re: me too!

no wonder. Franch boats are very light and i would not want to have a lot of chain in any of these designs chain lockers. Fortress makes sense on light boats, because it really is the shape that does the job, not the weight. It even works well without any chain. Had one on my former boat (nic 35) as a spare and it worked a treat. Sometimes so good it was difficult to break out.

i think I will buy one again, as a spare and/or kedge. As a main anchor I shall stick to good old CQR, simply because I now know how to use it. If I would have had any other anchor to start off with I certainly would have stuck with that one.

i agree it is very much a personal matter.

Peter a/b SV Heerenleed, Steenbergen, Netherlands